New Braggot Idea - Wit/Gran Cru

[srkaeppler]

Hey All-

I have an idea for a new braggot, but would really like some help/suggestions/advice/warnings. I have tossed this idea against Wayne a little bit, so I have gotten some of his input, but would like some more.

The idea for this brew would be similar to Papazian's Gran Cru recipe. Let me express a few ideas I have though which would make it different.

1. I'd like to use a partial(psuedo) mash and/or steeping grains to increase the complexity/flavor. I am not sure which grains to use. This is worth researching when I get some spare time. I know some of the grain selection depends on the flavor you want. I would say I want a fairly traditional wit/gran cru flavor. Any suggestions on which grains to use? I also have not done a partial mash yet, but it looks like a fairly straight forward process.

2. I would like to use on the order of 5 gallons of Orange Blossom Honey for the fermentation and also use some in the bottling stage. I figure the orange blossom honey, besides tasting awesome, will go well with the Orange/Coriander in this recipe. I would like the alcohol content to be on the order of 6-8%. If I do better and maintained the taste - great!

3. Hops wise, Papazian recommends using Hallertau. I think that would be good or Saaz. I might bring the hop content up just a bit; I don't want it too hoppy, but just enough that it is noticeable. Any suggestions on type or amount?

4. Yeast Wise, I plan to use something from Activator(along with a starter I will make). I am thinking the tradition Wit beer yeast or the Forbidden Fruit yeast. Any suggestions? I plan to ferment this at higher temperatures(at least 70 degrees) to get some of nice esters. I may actually do this one in summer, because my apartment will naturally come up to a nice 75 degrees whether I want it to or not.

5. Last but not least, do I have to worry about any nutrient issues, head retention or other issues?

I will also mention too that I have not done a whole lot of reading on the subject of designing beers yet. I haven't really had time, but this is an idea I figure I have some time to think about before getting the ingredients. Anyway, I would just appreciate some advice and any further resources!

Thanks!

Steve

 

[wayneb]

Steve,

Do you really mean 5 gallons of honey, or 5 lbs? ;D

 

[akueck]

Remind me to come back to this after squash. I have done a couple witbiers.

 

[akueck]

Ok, here is the latest version of my witbier. Pretty easy to add more honey, and of course to preserve the honey aroma add it after cooling the wort.

5 gallon batch:
1 lb 2-row malt
1 lb white wheat malt
1/2 lb flaked wheat
1/4 lb Belgian aromatic malt
3.5 lb dry light extract
1 lb dry wheat extract
3/8 lb honey
1/2 oz Tettnang 60 mins
3/4 oz Tettnang 15 mins
3/4 oz Saaz 5 min
1 3/4 tsp cracked coriander
1 oz bitter orange peel
WhiteLabs WLP400 Belgian Wit Ale

Mash the grains ~45 mins. For regular old beer, aim for 150-152 F. For a braggot you might want to do it slightly higher, 154-155 F.

Add half the extract in the last 10 mins to prevent darkening the wort. Add half the spices at 15 mins, half at 5 mins.

Ferment warmish 66-68 F or for more yeasty character around 70-72.

This comes out to about 5.5% abv.

You can also add a small amount of grains of paradise if you want. Papaya seeds are also good. In a very small dose, peppercorns can be a fun addition.

 

[Golddiggie]

akueck, once I've brewed enough to be comfortable mashing my grains, I'll have to give this a try...

How would you describe the final product with that recipe?

I realize, now, that I should have added the honey post cooking in my honey porter... Next time, I'll add the honey once the wort has dropped below 140F (closer to 100F, or lower maybe)...

 

[akueck]

How would you describe the final product with that recipe?

It comes out very nice. A light, easy to drink beer with a fruity spice note. Definite crowd-pleaser. Give it a good dose of carbonation. Do not serve with a slice of orange (that's tacky IMNSHO, not to mention that it kills the head). Honestly I haven't brewed it in several years but it's still on my brew-again list. You can easily switch up the spices and the yeast strain to change the flavor profile, the malt base itself is pretty mild and suitable for lots of different additions. Some variations to try would be lemon instead of orange peel; changing the spice to rosemary, basil (Bison Brewing does a honey basil beer that is tasty), or bay; or using a Saison yeast and fermenting at 75-80 F.

Steve, I left off some of your questions.

If you bump the honey up in the above recipe to 3 lbs, you should have about 7.5-8% abv. If you want more honey, you can take out some of the dry light extract, roughly 4/5 lb of extract for 1 lb of honey. I think it will be plenty characteristic of honey with 3 lb in there, but of course it is up to you.

Hallertau is a great hop. You can use it instead of the Tettnang if you want. Or you can use Saaz for all the hops. I like adding a little Saaz at the end for the spicy character, but I love the Tettnang or Hallertau for the earlier additions more.

I've never used Forbidden Fruit but know a couple people who have. It is more estery than the Wit yeast. Personally I liked the Wit yeast. As I mentioned, a Saison yeast would do interesting things for this beer if you wanted to ferment it very warm, above 75 F.

I didn't have any head retention problems with this beer. Got the classic Belgian lace, no problems. As a beer, you don't have to worry much about nutrients since there is so much malt in there. If you're only going up to 8% abv, and you use a starter, I would say you're probably fine for the braggot too. If you're worried you can toss ~5 g of Fermaid and a few grams of DAP in there.

Carbonate this one healthily. 3 volumes is a good spot.

Edit:
Here's the "ingredients" list for witbier from BJCP. Some good ideas in there. I forgot all about chamomile, the "secret" extra ingredient in some great witbiers.

About 50% unmalted wheat (traditionally soft white winter wheat) and 50% pale barley malt (usually pils malt) constitute the grist. In some versions, up to 5-10% raw oats may be used. Spices of freshly-ground coriander and Cura�ao or sometimes sweet orange peel complement the sweet aroma and are quite characteristic. Other spices (e.g., chamomile, cumin, cinnamon, Grains of Paradise) may be used for complexity but are much less prominent. Ale yeast prone to the production of mild, spicy flavors is very characteristic. In some instances a very limited lactic fermentation, or the actual addition of lactic acid, is done.

I wouldn't suggest working with 50% unmalted wheat unless you're really into sticky balls of goo. Get a few beers under your belt (and in your belly) and then go for it. The recipe above has a noticeable wheat character without all the extra work.

 

[Golddiggie]

akueck,

Do you boil with the hops for the time next to them? I'm trying to figure out what to make next, since I'll be bottling my ale before end of day Saturday, and probably my honey porter (either the same day or within a few more days)... So, I'll have two 5 gal carboy's free (not to mention my 6 gal primary)...

If you've not mashed your own grain before, how would you tweak the recipe? Or is that really the only way to make this?

 

[akueck]

Yes, the hops are listed as amount/boil time.

You could drop all the grains and use ~2 lbs of wheat extract instead. (Wheat extract is typically around 50% wheat, 50% barley.) Or use ~1.5 lbs of the extract and keep the flaked wheat for some added wheaty-tang.

 

[wildoates]

Did someone mention raw oats? I'm right here, baby.

Too bad I don't like beer, so many recipes sound like so much fun to make!

(and no, Aaron, I'm not going to make it and give it all to you, so don't even ask. )

 

[srkaeppler]

akueck--

Thanks for the reply on this post. I apologize for not getting back with you sooner or not really responding to your post. Work started to dominate my life at the end of November and most of December. I am heading to the brew shop tomorrow and thinking about picking up the ingredients for this brew. Then again, I may wait till closer to summer time. I do want some esters in the brew, so I think a higher fermentation temperature will help with that. My apartment will naturally sit around 70 in the summer time, making life easy in that regard

Anyway, thank you again, I may post more soon on this.

Steve