• PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.

Spruce Tips vs Hops

Barrel Char Wood Products

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
I tried searching this, but have had no luck. I'm planning on making a simple gruit, either a pale-ale or pale-lager (assuming I can keep it cold enough with just an ice bath for the whole ferment... seems tricky), with spruce tips instead of hops.

I don't want to over or under do it, and am wondering if anyone has a rough idea how many oz of spruce tips compares to how many of hops?

I was thinking of starting with (for a 5gal batch) 2oz for 60 minutes, 1oz for 15 minutes, and then 1oz added in primary (if more taste/aroma is needed I can add some in secondary too). I'm hoping this might give me just a little more bitterness than the usual beer (really need to learn my IBUs), and plenty of spruce taste and aroma.
 

DaleP

NewBee
Registered Member
Nov 30, 2008
199
0
0
Webster Groves, Mo
I brew a beer every year that is called Deep Forest Ale. It uses spruce tips in the mash and boil, maple syrup in secondary and aged on oak. I use fresh spruce tips. Spruce tips are the new, bright green growth in early spring on the trees. They are quite supple, have a wintergreen/sassafrass/spruce flavor the spruce the weakest of the three. They are very high in sugar content, and traditionally considered more of a fermentable than a flavoring. Best to measure by volume, as the water content varies greatly. As far as a substitute for hops, I don't think so. Hops (or other bittering herbs) are added to play against the sweetness of the wort. I use Fuggles in my version, its known for its earthy, woodsy flavor and aroma.
Its most likely too late this year to gather spruce tips. A mid spring ale only.
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
Really? I find that surprising, I've tasted them myself and find them very similar to whole hops (yes... I tasted the hops, I'm a weirdo) though not quite as bitter as the hops I had. Obviously you've got plently of experience using them in beer, but I've read lots of posts on other forums where other people comment on how similar to hops they are, and how they are very commonly used as a bittering agent (I just couldn't find numbers on how much to use).

I do understand that the spruce component in their taste is understated, when I ate some raw it was there, but was not in the fore.

Also, as far as gathering, I'm in Canada. They just started sprouting new tips a week or two ago, some trees haven't even started yet - so I'm all-good on that front. :) Way behind the hotter parts of the world, it snowed in the last month, so for us this is mid-spring!

If I decide to test this for myself (not to in any way say that I don't appreciate the advice, or your greater experience), and am hellbent on attempting to bitter with them, would you have any advice as to the volume (tightly packed I presume) to use in a 5 gallon batch? I'm going to be making as dry a beer as I can, so will not need much bittering to offset the sweetness.

Is it possible that we're tasting different kinds of spruce? I have probably 5 or 6 different kinds growing around me, and I've so far only tasted one of them, and I feel semi-confident that it is bitter enough to do the job.
 

wayneb

Lifetime Patron
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Something else to consider -- the bittering acids in hops are isomerized and thus made water soluble, by boiling. An extended boil of the spruce tips might actually reduce their perceived bitterness, or increase it, or change nothing. I don't honestly know. I'd suggest that unless you hear from someone else here with some more spruce tip bittering experience, that you conduct a few experiments on some sample tips to help you decide how you'd want to process yours for the brew.
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
I was thinking about the boil changing things, you're right that a test is in order.

I just went outside and picked 27oz of these things, so I can do a few experiments.

I don't want to try adding them to water and waiting for extraction to compare to boiled, but what I can do it go throw on a pot of water (say a half-gal) with maybe 2oz (now that I see how much more these weigh than hops I think I'd go with at least 4oz per gal to start) and let it boil for an hour, then taste the water.

I'm going to loosely chop them to increase the extraction.



I'll report back on what that does, and then go from there. :) I love mad scientist time.
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
Okay, got the pot on the stove, I decided to go with just 1 litre and 2oz of tips, coarsely chopped. I should also mention that these are from the green looking spruce trees near my house, not the blue-er ones, and they are mostly short young sprouts, very few over 1 or 1.5 inches.

Will report back soon, and will get an SG just for science's sake. Sorry for all the double posting!
 
S

sima74

Guest
Guest
I saw a mention of the use of spruce to make Spruce beer in a book I have called Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers. They seem to use spruce essence and some recipes use 1 oz essence per gallon of water and some recipes were using 1 oz essence per 2 gallons of water (and everywhere between). Book says:

"To make spruce essence, take the green shoots of black or red spruce (blue spruce can be used, but it is much stronger in taste), cover with water, and boil until the water is pungent, strongly flavored, and reddish brown. Strain and boil the liquid down to half it's original volume. It can be bottled and kept year-round for use."

Not sure if that helps or not. I can send you the recipes they have if you'd like to see the spruce beers for ideas.
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
The problem I've run into with these historical spruce beers is that they seemed to be adding spruce to prevent scurvy more than anything, and often include hops and other flavouring agents, I want to try just spruce.

That said, once I complete the current boiling experiment I might be looking for whatever I can get my hands on for info!
 

skunkboy

NewBee
Registered Member
May 30, 2005
2,003
8
0
Between Jackson and Detroit
One of the local guys does a spruce tip beer at least a couple of times a year, if he can get decent spruce tips. He usually fills a paper shopping bag with tips and sparges through them. Although I can't remember if that is for 5 or 10 gallons of beer.
 

Chevette Girl

All around BAD EXAMPLE
Moderator
Lifetime GotMead Patron
Apr 27, 2010
8,443
53
48
Ottawa, ON
The problem I've run into with these historical spruce beers is that they seemed to be adding spruce to prevent scurvy more than anything

That's right, I recall from my "edible plants" kick that spruce buds have a lot of vitamin C in them... neat idea, that...
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
Well, the boiling test is done, 2oz in 1 litre produce very little if any bitterness. There was some flavour and aroma, but not really identifiable as spruce. DaleP I should not have doubted ye! And Wayne, thanks for advising the test.

I'm doing a hot steep test right now to see if that works better, at least for flavour and aroma I hope.

I did take an SG measurement, and found that even at this high an amount per volume, there is no noticable increase in density.

What I'm going to try next for bittering is some spruce needles, ones that are green and alive but hard, very bitter, and from previous years. Hopefully that will increase both the spruce presence and the bitterness (I might even try boiling whole branches).
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
The hot steep did work much better, the aroma was definitely spruce, and the taste was stronger, though is was more tea-like and wintergreen-y (as per DaleP) than I expected. There was some bitterness, but not enough for beer - I'll do some experiments with actual needles to see if those do the trick, otherwise this might need some hops.

I think when I brew this I should not boil the tips, or the fluid afterwards. I'll do my wort as normal, then I'll put the tips in while to steep while it cools down to a pitchable level (might also just chuck some in primary). I'll probably go pretty heavy, as I know how fermentation lessens these kind of flavours.

I'm thinking of using something nuts like 60 or 80 oz - a lot will depend on what I get out of the needles.
 

DaleP

NewBee
Registered Member
Nov 30, 2008
199
0
0
Webster Groves, Mo
There is a Finnish beer that uses juniper branches as a filter bed in the lauder tun (sort of a false bottom of juniper "leaves". Having enjoyed a few samples that were traditionally made, the flavor was not cedar as one would expect.
Spruce beers are quite tasty, my 5 gallons goes by quickly come the colder months. P.M. for complete recipe if interested.
p.s.
I'm using roughly a packed gallon in both the mash and boil, not an exact measurement, but I see this hobby as more art than science.
 
Last edited:

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
Ok, that sounds like it's probably even more than the range I was thinking of (my half gallon bucket was about 30oz, so 2 gallons is probably about 120oz).

I'd very much appreciate grabbing that recipe off of you, it sounds like the kind of thing that's right up my alley (LOVE maple in beers, I'm assuming that ferments out, but you put it in secondary for a gentler ferment that won't drive off flavours and aromas?).

In the mean time though, I'll hopefully go ahead with my crazy spruce needle experiments soon.

EDIT: and I'm definitely not worried about exact measurements for the tips, they're so mildly flavoured that being off by a few % each time probably makes no difference whatsoever.
 
Last edited:

DaleP

NewBee
Registered Member
Nov 30, 2008
199
0
0
Webster Groves, Mo
Sorry for the long delay....
Deep Forest Ale (5 gallon batch)

12 pounds Maris Otter
3/4 pound 25L Crystal
1/2 pound 135L Crystal
1 gallon spruce tips (I used black spruce)
mash this at 154 for one hour.
1 hour boil add another gallon of spruce tips and a pound of dark brown sugar
at 60 minutes an ounce of Fuggles
at 15 minutes 1/2 ounce of Fuggles
Used White Labs 007 (either a half gallon starter or yeast cake off of a bitter)
in secondary a quart of maple syrup
finished at 1.012

I hope you enjoy this ale!
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
I'll have to give this a try soon, first I'm going to try a lighter and dryer ale with about 2oz hops in the 60 min boil, and then add a gallon or so of spruce tips at flameout.

If anyone is wondering, I did some boil experiments with who spruce branches - did not work. If you want bitterness, go for hops or something proven, spruce ain't gonna do it.

Thanks though Dale - I will try this, maybe with a partial mash version (I don't have much gear for beer), it looks great - I love maple in beer, and I think I'm going to love spruce tips.

I'm hoping to do a 75% 25% blend of random "green" spruce (so many kinds around my house I just don't know what they are) and blue spruce.
 

ckbryant

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 6, 2010
15
0
0
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
I thought I'd just mention...I made a gallon of spruce beer on a lark a couple years ago. Let me assure that a little spruce goes a LONG way. I was using spruce essence, 1 teaspoon to the gallon of wort on the last two minutes of the boil, about a 5 1/2 percent alcohol beer at the end of the day, dark malt extract. And I just couldn't drink the stuff. It was like Pine-Sol, even after six months in the bottle. I guess it's left me kind of gun shy, because I haven't bothered to try it again.

Stephen Harrod Buhner, in Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers, gives a "modern" recipe for a spruce beer of 2 pounds molasses, 2 gallons water, 6 ounces fresh spruce boughs, and "yeast" (his exact phrasing). Boil the spruce boughs in the water one hour and remove them, dissolve the molasses, and pitch when cool. Alleged to be drinkable in ten days. Buhner is a fantastic read, but you have to have a little advanced literary theory under your belt--unreliable narrators and all that. He admits to not having evaluated all his recipes, and personally vouches for very few of them. So who knows if this is any good, but trying it out would cost you ten days and two pounds of molasses.

Good luck!
 

AToE

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 8, 2009
4,066
3
0
Calgary AB Canada
Don't worry, I've done my experiments - spruce tips are very mellow, I doubt you could actually over do them without losing all your liquid! Even with 2 ounces of tips in a half litre, it was fine. I'm going to just use as much as I possibly can, somewhere between a gallon and one and a hallf gallons probably (maybe 75 - 100 ounces, they're pretty water heavy).

Also - just personal opinion, but I found that the boil actually seriously diminished the flavour, even for only 15 or 30 min, let alone a full hour. I tried doing a hot steep (took water to a boil, took it off the heat, waited a few minutes then chucked in the tips) and found the flavour and aroma to be much stronger, and more "sprucy", basically more like the fresh tips.
 

ckbryant

NewBee
Registered Member
Jun 6, 2010
15
0
0
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
I do look forward to seeing what you come up with! No access to spruce down here, but someday I might vacation in Canada at the right time, and my wife will attest, I'm not above brewing an field-improvised gallon or two.
 

DaleP

NewBee
Registered Member
Nov 30, 2008
199
0
0
Webster Groves, Mo
I thought I'd just mention...I made a gallon of spruce beer on a lark a couple years ago. Let me assure that a little spruce goes a LONG way. I was using spruce essence, 1 teaspoon to the gallon of wort on the last two minutes of the boil, about a 5 1/2 percent alcohol beer at the end of the day, dark malt extract. And I just couldn't drink the stuff. It was like Pine-Sol, even after six months in the bottle. I guess it's left me kind of gun shy, because I haven't bothered to try it again.

Stephen Harrod Buhner, in Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers, gives a "modern" recipe for a spruce beer of 2 pounds molasses, 2 gallons water, 6 ounces fresh spruce boughs, and "yeast" (his exact phrasing). Boil the spruce boughs in the water one hour and remove them, dissolve the molasses, and pitch when cool. Alleged to be drinkable in ten days. Buhner is a fantastic read, but you have to have a little advanced literary theory under your belt--unreliable narrators and all that. He admits to not having evaluated all his recipes, and personally vouches for very few of them. So who knows if this is any good, but trying it out would cost you ten days and two pounds of molasses.

Good luck!

I took my version to my local homebrew club meeting for all to sample. No one commented on a "pine sol" flavor, a few who had tried the essence replied that was the flavor they got. Like AToE stated, the flavor is mild and I'll testify that the resulting beer is quite good.
 
Barrel Char Wood Products

Viking Brew Vessels - Authentic Drinking Horns