Making hard cider

[keepitlow]

I can buy some sweet cider that has been treated with some sort of intense light to kill bacteria. No one seems to sell untreated cider around here. Will it make hard cider if I use it without adding any yeast? Or did the light treatment ruin it for cider?

Also, is hard cider usually carbonated? If carbonated, can I make the cider in Grolsch flip top beer bottles or will they explode?


Thanks

 

[crowquill]

I've used UV pasteurized cider to make both hard cider and cyser. It worked fine but I did add commercial yeast. I'm not sure where you are located but here in New York state you can't buy unpasteurized cider anymore.

I've only done still cider.

 

[triarchy]

As far as carbonation goes, I do about half of my ciders carbonated. Normally in beer bottles with regular caps. Im sure if you keep your carbonation to a normal "beer" level (2-3 volumes), then Grolsch flip tops will work fine. If you want a lot of carbonation (think Champagne), then a Champagne style bottle and cork would be in order.

For a 6 gallon batch at roughly 2 volumes, I would add almost 5 oz of honey at bottling.

 

[AToE]

It'll explode if you do the whole ferment in the bottle of course, but if you're using normal bottle carbonation procedure why would you expect more or less pressure than any other drink?

And obviously no, it will not just ferment on it's own, that's the purpose of the treatment...

What's the fascination with not adding yeast if you don't mind me asking? Not that there's anything wrong with trying to use wild yeast, but it's not the best way to go as a beginner. You'll get far far better results with even bread yeast, and of course better with actual yeasts selected for fermenting.

 

[akueck]

If you don't want to add yeast, just open the container and leave it on the counter with the lid off (some cheesecloth over the opening is a good idea to keep flies out). It will ferment, but you might get unintended results.

There are several strains of cider yeast commercially available. I've had cider made with them, and they turn out good. I've also used Windsor yeast (an ale strain, available dry) to good ends.

 

[crimsondrac]

I am also contemplating making a natural yeast apple cider. I have read that the skins of apples generally have enough yeast on them to start a fermentation. I am gonna try making my own juice using a fruit juicer. One of those similar to the Juiceman Jr.'s. I believe they do a pretty good job at separating the solids from the liquids. That way, I can bypass the whole pasturization thing. Probably gonna need a ton of apples though. Need to make the juice as sweet as possible so will probably mostly use Golden Delicious with some Granny Smiths thrown in for a bit of tartness. Gonna try not to add in any additional sugars. I know it will make for a weaker cider, but I am only shooting for 6% - 7% anyways.

Still trying to figure out how to use the pectic enzymes to extract more juice. I know I have to mix it in with chopped up apples, but not sure how long to let it sit or if it requires additional water.

 

[triarchy]

I can tell you from experience that using a fruit juicer is pretty tedious work. And it might have been my juicer being cheap, but I did get a lot of very fine solids that separated out after letting the juice sit for a day. It was also pretty inefficient compared to pressing.

One idea might be to call around to cider makers in your area and see if they would press fruit for you. Here in WI there are a few that do that, maybe you will be lucky to find one.

Ive never used pectic enzyme to aid in juice extraction, so I cant help there. I do put it in the juice before I add yeast to help it clear.

 

[Medsen Fey]

This thread has a link you may find useful for juicing apples.

 

[crimsondrac]

I imagine a fruit press may be quite tedious too unless you found one that was run by a motor. The Hand screw types I see on some of the websites look like a pain in the rear to setup, press then clean. However, I live in Houston and finding a "nearby' Juicer would be quite a task and a trip. Not to mention the money I would spend in gas, traveling, and paying the place to press the fruit would probably end up costing me much more then a few bottles of cider would be worth. Just like trying to find some local honey around here. Closest Apiary I can find is about 50 miles away. lol. And you figure a city this size would have more then one LHBS. But I can only find one in a city of 2 million people.

I am ok with have some solid particles in the must. I think if would add some character to the flavor and I can still filter it out later. Though I believe the pectic enzymes would help all that settle to the bottom.

 

[crimsondrac]

Hmm...That is a great link Medsen. It has definately given me something to think about. According to that guy's website, if he yields an average of 200ml of juice per apple, and there is approx 3785ml per US gallon, it would take about 20 apples to make enough for 1 gallon of juice. That means you would need in the neighborhood of about 100 apples to have enough to make a 5 gallon batch. Not sure if peeling and coring 100 apples is gonna be worth it. I certainly see now why most people just go out and buy the apple juice. lol.

 

[fatbloke]

Hmm...That is a great link Medsen. It has definately given me something to think about. According to that guy's website, if he yields an average of 200ml of juice per apple, and there is approx 3785ml per US gallon, it would take about 20 apples to make enough for 1 gallon of juice. That means you would need in the neighborhood of about 100 apples to have enough to make a 5 gallon batch. Not sure if peeling and coring 100 apples is gonna be worth it. I certainly see now why most people just go out and buy the apple juice. lol.

it seems to depend on how well the apples are pulped, as well as how good the press is.

The screw presses are quite good as they tend to have quite coarse threads, but I should have thought that if you either have, or make a press that uses hydraulics (something like this) in some way, then the pressing efficiency increases....

Oh, and what I've done in the past, is to pulp the apples to an "apple sauce" constituency, then the pulp is put into a bucket with sulphite and pectolase for a day or two, which also helps with both juice extraction and mould prevention, then it's pressed in either pulp bags or pressing cloths.

The best/cheapest option for milling/pulping/crushing, seems to be a garbage disposal, built into a small frame so that you can just put the apples in whole and then the pulp is just run into a bucket - hell you could even line the bucket with a pressing cloth/straining bag..... straight into the press.....

You'd be able to press many, many hundreds of kilos of apples very quickly that way....

regards

fatbloke

 

[AToE]

I wouldn't bother peeling and coring them, I'd just mash the whole thing.

 

[crimsondrac]

Maybe not peeling them is fine as I plan on trying to use some of the natural yeast on the apples to ferment it, but you have to core them. Apple seeds contain trace amounts of cyanide. Eating some will not kill you but I imagine you get a high enough concentration, it could do some damage. The alcohol may even leech out the cyanide. Not sure on how the actual chemical process works. There are a number of other seeds/pits out there that are the same, pears, apricots, cherries. Supposedly, it is some natural defense mechanism these plants have evolved over the thousands of years.

 

[wayneb]

The number of pits from the apples generally used to make cider juice is an insignificant contributor of cyanide... this isn't a worry. If it were a problem, then there'd be lots of reports of folks keeling over from cyanide poisoning as a result of drinking either sweet apple juice or fermented cider.

 

[Chevette Girl]

I wouldn't worry too much.

http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/apples.asp

Not only do we metabolize small amounts of cyanide just fine, but you'd have to intentionally concentrate it to get a dangerous effect out of apple seeds.

I'm sure if there were a problem with cyanide poisoning from apples, the cider pressers would core the apples and as far as I have ever heard, nobody cores cider apples before pressing, it would be too labour-intensive.

This article also suggests that fermentation decreases the cyanogenic glycosides.

http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/science/chemical-information-sheets/fact-sheet-cyanogenic-glycosides.pdf

 

[Medsen Fey]

This article also suggests that fermentation decreases the cyanogenic glycosides.

http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/science/chemical-information-sheets/fact-sheet-cyanogenic-glycosides.pdf

CG, :thumbsup:
Thanks for posting this excellent description of of the cyanogenic glycosides. I'm very pleased to see the major reduction that occurs from soaking and fermenting. I'm particularly pleased because Sambunigrin, the toxin in elderberries, is also a cyanogenic glycoside. While I haven't seen any literature that specifically addresses the effect of fermentation on Sambunigrin levels, this certainly lends support to the idea that elderberries don't have to be boiled to be used. This may account for the reason than non-boiled elderberry wine toxicity is not something you hear about.

 

[fatbloke]

CG, :thumbsup:
Thanks for posting this excellent description of of the cyanogenic glycosides. I'm very pleased to see the major reduction that occurs from soaking and fermenting. I'm particularly pleased because Sambunigrin, the toxin in elderberries, is also a cyanogenic glycoside. While I haven't seen any literature that specifically addresses the effect of fermentation on Sambunigrin levels, this certainly lends support to the idea that elderberries don't have to be boiled to be used. This may account for the reason than non-boiled elderberry wine toxicity is not something you hear about.

Haven't read the actual link that CG alludes to yet Medsen, but if you had a dig through Luc Volders blog (or hell, just google wijnmaker+elderberry), he mentions the sambunigrin thing and that while it's probably not a high enough level to be an issue, it may be the case that with unboiled/heat treated elderberry, some people who drink such wines might have more of a sensitivity to it than others....

I understand that the heat threating (steam extraction or boiling with water and pressing pulp) largely metabolises it as to be even less of a problem. If, as you mention, that fermentation also removes even more if it and other "cyanogenic glycosides", then that's also got to be a good thing.

Most people just see the word "cyanide" and panic, they don't realise that all piped/stone fruit contain it (mainly in the pips/stone).......

Hey ho! maybe that's another "urban myth" deflated.....

regards

fatbloke

 

[YogiBearMead726]

Need to make the juice as sweet as possible so will probably mostly use Golden Delicious with some Granny Smiths thrown in for a bit of tartness. Gonna try not to add in any additional sugars. I know it will make for a weaker cider, but I am only shooting for 6% - 7% anyways.

Just so you don't get into the habit of thinking this way, Golden Delicious is actually a pretty bland variety in terms of juice sweetness. Granted, whatever you use will work, but if you're serious about sweetness, consider a different varietal of apple. Pink Lady comes to mind. It's very sweet and used primarily in cooking and cider making due to how sweet it is. Jazz apples are also very nice in both flavor and sweetness of the juice. Go out and buy some different apples from your farmers market and juice them at home to see which one suits you best. If in a side-by-side tasting you still want to use Golden Delicious juice, go for it. But don't expect something uniquely tasting. Just some "food" for thought.

 

[icedmetal]

Just so you don't get into the habit of thinking this way, Golden Delicious is actually a pretty bland variety in terms of juice sweetness. Granted, whatever you use will work, but if you're serious about sweetness, consider a different varietal of apple. Pink Lady comes to mind. It's very sweet and used primarily in cooking and cider making due to how sweet it is. Jazz apples are also very nice in both flavor and sweetness of the juice. Go out and buy some different apples from your farmers market and juice them at home to see which one suits you best. If in a side-by-side tasting you still want to use Golden Delicious juice, go for it. But don't expect something uniquely tasting. Just some "food" for thought.

Wow, didn't know we have so many apple experts on the boards. Here's a little food for thought: if you're choosing your apples, you're probably pressing them yourself too, meaning your quality will be very high regardless. That being the case, my golden delicious cider will beat the everloving piss out of ANY store bought cider, every time, hands down, no contest.
Remember that quality has just as much to do with your final product as does apple choice. Golden Delicious apples costing half what the other varietals cost should also be considered; do you truly believe your finished Pink Lady or Jonagold or Honeycrisp cider will be twice as good as the Golden Delicious cider?

Just my .02. If you've not made cider before, Golden Delicious apples are a most excellent place to start.

 

[Tannin Boy]

Just my .02. If you've not made cider before, Golden Delicious apples are a most excellent place to start.

Icedmetal,

Being new to this Cider making I found your comment's of the Golden Delicious
most interesting and intriguing! Could you tell us a bit of your method of making this cider and what your final ABV was. Did you blend different apples or was it a single variety? What was your impression of apple flavor / sweetness in the finished cider.

Regards,

TB