Origins of life

  • PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
I saw that. From a business standpoint, it's brilliant. Make profit for what you believe to be nothing. And since those that believe in the rapture get peace of mind, everybody wins!

For the record, I think the "May 21st rapture" guy is way off base... Again >.>
 
The discussion about non-Christians going to heaven reminds me of Biorn

Reminds me of Rowan Atkinson's "Warm Welcome".

I'm actually sitting down with a Muslim friend this afternoon to discuss this thread and related religious issues, since I really don't know much about that faith. Who knows, maybe I'll have something else interesting to bring to the thread later. :)

Still intrigued that nobody's continued on with the multiplicity of God suggested in Genesis.

And Pewter, I'm sorry if it upsets you when we who are not believers make light of Hell. No offense was intended. I joke about it because it's out of my control and I feel there's no point in worrying about it. I can't just embrace God/Jesus/whatever and make it all better. I just can't. I've even tried. I could say I do, but it's not in me and if I DID say it and go through all the motions, I'd be going against my own code by being a hypocrite because I just don't believe it with any certainty. Telling me to believe is like telling you not to. Can't. Just ... can't, not with heart, mind and soul. I keep an open mind, I try not to be rigid in my thinking, I rarely ever rule anything out for good. I have in the past altered my moral, ethical and spiritual codes based on new information/experiences, but basically I try to live my life so that if I can't bring something positive, at least I leave the least negative impact on the people, creatures and places around me. I don't feel there is anything missing from my life, I'm OK not knowing. If there is a Heaven and I get there, yay for me, if there's a Hell and I deserve to go there, well, I guess I made more wrong choices than I thought. I just don't know, I may never know, and I'm doing the best I can based on what I think I know. Maybe I get good doobie points for living right even without any firm belief. And if it turns out that it's not good enough, well, I'm used to that too. <shrug>

 
I believe the Bible gives evidence that hell is not what some people think it to be. With scriptures like Ecclesiastes 9:5 plainly stating that the dead are not conscious of anything at all, and the account of Jesus resurrecting his friend Lazarus (He was sick, Jesus was traveling to heal him. He died before Jesus got there. Jesus spoke to his apostles figuratively, saying he was going to wake him from sleep. His apostles didn't get it, so he plainly said Lazarus had died.)

If the Bible describes death as being like sleep, where you are not aware of anything, torturing someone in hell for eternity seems a bit pointless to me. Again, I'm not trying to make light of anyone's beliefs either, just explaining my own beliefs and why I believe them.
 
Last edited:
Definitely don't mean to be offensive when trivializing hell, but it's impossible to be scared of something I'm pretty sure doesn't exist (when I say I don't believe in a creator to a degree that's essentially identical with being 100%, understand that I believe in a specific religion orders of magnitude less than even that, and then specific aspects of those religions such as hell I believe in orders of magnitude less than that, so I really am utterly incapable of being afraid of it).

If it's real then yes, that's something to fear with maximum capacity fear!

Echostatic - the topic of hell (and the devil, but we'll leave that) in the Bible is something I've always wanted to learn more about, because while Christians seem to quote (from my experiences) from the Old Testament about the topic often, as far as I know Judaism doesn't have hell at all. Their version of heaven isn't even really remotely close to the common Christian one, in Judaism death is just like non-existance until the world reaches the end of time, then all the righteous get to come back in the "world to come" (which is never really explained as far as I know). It's not an afterlife you go to immediately when you die (which interestingly enough actually lines up better with that New Testament quote you just posted much better than the common concept of Christian Heaven fits with that quote). Islam's afterlife as far as I know works the same way, doesn't exist at the same time as our world, it's afterwards (they do have a hell though as far as I know, I've got to have more conversations with Muslims).
 
I dunno, didn't seem to go as well that time as it's gone this time!

Oskaar's post that was something like: "Get honey, make mead, drink mead - all other rules are just incoherant babbling to me." would have made me shoot mead out my nose if I'd had any in my mount! Man did that make me laugh!
 
I wanted to expand on an idea I went into a little earlier, I think that there's more than just a difference between an atheist and a believer (we'll leave out the inbetween people but this applies to them too), I think better understanding could be acheived by thinking of these terms in duplicate - emotional vs rational atheism and emotional vs rational believer. (As I said, to keep it simple we'll leave out agnostic, but same thing applies, emotional vs rational).

I think that what leads to those people who have such excellent fulfilment and a sense of purpose and belonging (insert other good stuff) is those people who align both parts of their mind.

Sometimes people go from atheist to believer, and from believer to atheist (note though, this is important. Most atheists are not like myself, having never really believed, the vast majority were brought up as believers and lost their faith later in life. So when someone talks about atheists becoming believers, it's an important distinction to find out about in their history, which helps understand the "why" of their change).

I think some people try to be atheist when really their "heart" just isn't made for it. It leaves them feeling empty, and eventually they end up going back to some form of faith. I don't really know why they try to be atheist, I think some people get overwhelmed by how science contradicts a lot of literalist interpretations in religions, and instead of just revising their beliefs to fit with the science (or as some people do, revising the science... I hear there's a nice museum in the South of the US that tells all about how we used to live with dinosaurs...) they pretty much have a crisis and bam, soon they've got themselves convinced that their now atheist.

I'd hate to be in that situation, and I'd absolutely end up back believing in something, because we have to be emotionally satisfied.

Trying to remember where this was going, ah yes - neither the "conscious/rational" part of our minds nor the "subconscious/emotional" part (yes that's a goofy way to split up the mind, but it illustrates my point!) is more important nor necessarily more "correct" than the other. How many times has our subconscious and emotions saved each of our butts and proven to be "smarter" than our conscious mind? Same goes for the rational/conscious part.

I have no idea why some people's rational mind looks at the data and says "yup, proof of a creator" and another person sees nothing of the sort. I also have no idea why some of us are deeply convicted emotionally (with or without the cooperation of the rational part of the mind) that there is a creator, and why some of us are equally (we assume equally anyways, don't exactly have a hydrometer for "conviction";)) deeply convicted emotionally that there isn't one.

If anyone knows any research or deep thought that's been written on the subject I'd love to read it - because here's the truth: none of us is really ever sure which part of our mind is really in charge of what. For all I know my emotions (not wanting a creator) twist my logic to suit, and for all a religious person knows the same might be happening to them. That's not the kind of admission many might make about themselves, but I'm pretty dedicated to truth. It's frightening how little access we seem to have to our own minds sometimes.
 
Echostatic - the topic of hell (and the devil, but we'll leave that) in the Bible is something I've always wanted to learn more about, because while Christians seem to quote (from my experiences) from the Old Testament about the topic often, as far as I know Judaism doesn't have hell at all. Their version of heaven isn't even really remotely close to the common Christian one, in Judaism death is just like non-existance until the world reaches the end of time, then all the righteous get to come back in the "world to come" (which is never really explained as far as I know). It's not an afterlife you go to immediately when you die (which interestingly enough actually lines up better with that New Testament quote you just posted much better than the common concept of Christian Heaven fits with that quote). Islam's afterlife as far as I know works the same way, doesn't exist at the same time as our world, it's afterwards (they do have a hell though as far as I know, I've got to have more conversations with Muslims).

I would be happy to try to try and show what the Biblical hell really is, if you're interested. Maybe learn a little. It's actually fairly simple. Since, like I mentioned earlier, the Bible compares the state of the dead to being in a deep, dreamless sleep, hell being a place of firey torment doesn't make sense from a scriptural standpoint.

So what, then, is hell? Looking at what the Bible says happened to Jesus when he died answers that question. At Acts 2:31, the Bible writer Luke writes "neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Ha´des [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption." What that scripture is stating is that, when Jesus died, he went to hell himself. However, he wasn't forsaken or forgotten there, but was resurrected after three days. So, if even Jesus went to this hell... where is it? In 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 the apostle Paul writes "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;*and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures". So the Bible states that Jesus was in hell, the grave, but not abandoned there, as he was raised up, or resurrected.

Look at the example of Job, as well. When he had lost his livestock, workers, children, and was riddled with a terrible disease, losing the support of his wife and being put down by his "friends", he was suffering terribly. Wanting to escape his plight, he pleaded: "Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell [Sheol], and hide me till thy wrath pass?" (Job 14:13, Douay Version) Doesn't it seem unreasonable that he wanted to go to a firey hot place for protection? To Job, "hell" was simply the grave, where his suffering would end. Seems like sufficient scriptural evidence to show that the Bible hell is the common grave of mankind. There are more scriptures, of course, that mention more interesting stuff like hell being destroyed and the very positive future of those who reside there, but that's beyond the scope of this post... And it's getting kind of long >.>
 
In 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 the apostle Paul writes "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;*and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures". So the Bible states that Jesus was in hell, the grave, but not abandoned there, as he was raised up, or resurrected.

Thanks, I very much appreciate it! This one seems ambiguous at best to me though, this just says Jesus died, not anything about what was happening to his soul before the resurrection. To me this is pretty clearly Paul talking about the "human view" of what happened, Jesus died, was buried (entombed really?) and then ressurected.

Unless I'm missing something truely vast here, this quote doesn't describe any aspect of the afterlife. What's the rest of that quote, maybe there's some context I'm missing? (I guess I can go look that up myself!)

(Paul is my least favourite "apostle" though, largely because of the sheer ego involved in naming yourself "apostle" when you never even met Jesus!)

Also, on an earlier quote you pulled, Sheol I'd have to ask my Hebrew friends about to be 100% certain, I've never heard it equated with/translated into "hell" before (Though I haven't read Job, so that might be why!) - you're totally right from what I know though about Sheol, it's not a terrible place, it's basically Limbo. So if that's the word they translated into "hell" then absolutely, hell has been completely missunderstood.

The whole idea of hell hasn't made any sense to me when combine with a "just" God. Of course, one can always just say he's got his own version of justice, but in my opinion - no matter how evil you were, at some point you've paid for it. If I was God I would just make people relive exactly the amount and kind of suffering they inflicted on others. Of course, deity I ain't! (Unless you're talking to pantheists or panentheists, then I am indeed a deity! Namaste!)
 
The whole idea of hell hasn't made any sense to me when combine with a "just" God.

You aren't alone in having a hard time combining hellfire with a just God. Jeremiah 7:31 gives insight into how God himself feels about things of that nature. There he was reproving the Israelites that had "burned their sons and their daughters in the fire". He insisted that this was "a thing that he had not commanded and that had not come up into his heart." Since God had never thought of such things, how can we imagine he would create a hellfire for his creatures?

Hellfire would also go against justice, one of God's main attributes. In Paul's letter to the Romans, he explained "The wages sin pays is death." (Romans 6:23) He also tells us "He who has died has been aquitted from his sin." (Romans 6:7) So if death completely removes a person's indebtedness, why should he suffer eternally for only a lifetime of sin?

(Paul is my least favourite "apostle" though, largely because of the sheer ego involved in naming yourself "apostle" when you never even met Jesus!)

Maybe I can shed some light on that, too. It might surprise you to know that the scriptures say he did actually meet Jesus, who directly chose him to be an apostle, though he never claimed to be one of the twelve. Read the account at Acts 9:1-22, it describes Paul's encounter with Jesus and his being chosen as an apostle in detail.

Also, on an earlier quote you pulled, Sheol I'd have to ask my Hebrew friends about to be 100% certain, I've never heard it equated with/translated into "hell" before

Hell isn't a perfect translation of the word. It's the word used by the Catholic Douay version for that scripture. There just isn't a word in the English language that conveys the precise sense of the Hebrew word Sheol. However, on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., the apostle Peter quoted from Psalm 16:10 and applied it to Jesus. Luke, in quoting Peter’s words, used the Greek word hai´des, thereby showing that Sheol and Hades refer to the same thing, mankind’s common grave. (Acts 2:25-27, 29-32)

This one seems ambiguous at best to me though, this just says Jesus died, not anything about what was happening to his soul before the resurrection.

Remember how Jesus described death for Lazarus at John 11:11-14. He described being dead as being asleep. As far as his soul, to put it simply, Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that man was given a soul, but that "the man came to be a living soul." So the Bible teaches that the soul *is* the person, and of course (and as explained at the end of Ezekiel 18:4) a person can die. ...Actually, that's worth quoting. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die"
 
Maybe I can shed some light on that, too. It might surprise you to know that the scriptures say he did actually meet Jesus, who directly chose him to be an apostle, though he never claimed to be one of the twelve. Read the account at Acts 9:1-22, it describes Paul's encounter with Jesus and his being chosen as an apostle in detail.

Man am I ever going to go read that right now! Unless this is talking about some kind of interaction with Jesus after he was back up with God then this is totally new to me, I was under the impression Paul never met him.

Remember how Jesus described death for Lazarus at John 11:11-14. He described being dead as being asleep. As far as his soul, to put it simply, Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that man was given a soul, but that "the man came to be a living soul." So the Bible teaches that the soul *is* the person, and of course (and as explained at the end of Ezekiel 18:4) a person can die. ...Actually, that's worth quoting. "The soul that is sinning—it itself will die"

I'm not at all dissagreeing with your interpretation of what hell is at all, very much agree with it, I was just saying that that particular Paul quote doesn't do anything for the argument, it just says Jesus was buried and then rose.
 
Man am I ever going to go read that right now! Unless this is talking about some kind of interaction with Jesus after he was back up with God then this is totally new to me, I was under the impression Paul never met him.

It was after Jesus was resurrected to his original spirit form. He travelled to earth for their interaction. A little insight into the meaning of "apostle" might help The Greek word a·po´sto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·stel´lo, meaning simply "send forth (or off)." Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus' statement: "A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·po´sto·los] greater than the one that sent him." (Joh 13:16) In that sense, the word also applies to Jesus, who was sent forth by God as his annointed representative. Paul was directly sent forth by Jesus to do his work, and therefore, by definition of the word, could say he was one of his apostles as well.

I'm not at all dissagreeing with your interpretation of what hell is at all, very much agree with it, I was just saying that that particular Paul quote doesn't do anything for the argument, it just says Jesus was buried and then rose.

If there is no soul that survives death, what else is there to mention?

Edit: Actually I think I can explain that a little better. The what paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 and what Luke wrote at Acts 2:31 both speak of the same thing. Luke says he was in hades, or hell, while he was dead. The quote from Paul is to emphasize that the meaning of this is that hades or hell is the common grave of mankind that we all go to. I do hope that makes more sense.
 
Last edited:
Awe, that was dissapointing! I already knew all about that whole bit. :( Oh well, got to read it again, which was nice.

EDIT: I was writing this as you were typing yours so I hadn't read it yet.
 
If there is no soul that survives death, what else is there to mention?

Edit: Actually I think I can explain that a little better. The what paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 and what Luke wrote at Acts 2:31 both speak of the same thing. Luke says he was in hades, or hell, while he was dead. The quote from Paul is to emphasize that the meaning of this is that hades or hell is the common grave of mankind that we all go to.

I still don't get that message from your earlier Paul quote from a "fresh eyes" point of view. I'm not saying it contradicts your version of hell, just that I woudn't use it as scriptural evidence in the future because it really can be interpreted a lot more literally pretty easily:

"that Christ died (meaning died, bodily) for our sins according to the Scriptures;*and that he was buried (he was, literally), yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures (and he's back)."

Or are you saying that the simple fact that Paul doesn't say anything about Jesus's time while dead is the evidence? That makes sense, but that's more of icing on the cake than the cake itself if you know what I mean. You've got a boatload of really good quotes supporting your interpretation of hell, I'm just saying this one isn't one I'd bring up if you're trying to convince someone (I don't need much convincing, I'm easy on this subject) in the future, I'd save it until after they're convince, or getting close.
 
Well that's fair enough, I was just using it to show where hell was :)

Also in the interest of being fair, I don't hold these beliefs alone, nor did I come up with them on my own. They're held by over seven million Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe these things because, as I think has been demonstrated, they all have a scriptural basis, which is essential to me personally.
 
No worries, I just like to give tips on what I find compelling evidence and not for future debates where you might have to convince someone (I already was of the opinion that the scripture didn't support the brimstone hell).

And also don't worry, I was pretty sure this wasn't stuff you'd come with yourself as I've heard some of it before (far less detail though) from Christians. I just kept refering to it as "your interpretation" because you were the one presenting it.

I love the Bible, but mostly just the Tenakh/Old Testament part, the new Testament I haven't read as much of and just don't get quite the same enjoyment out of it.

What this conversation really needs is some people from the other branches of the Abraham tree, need some Jewish and Islamic input (preferably both moderates, but of course I'd say that!).

A lot of what I know about the three religions came from one particular teacher, who had a really funny way of presenting everything. He was Christian, but of the three religions he poked the most fun at Christianity, and poked more holes in it than the other 2 religions combined. It was kinda funny, apparently somebody slipped a bunch of "trying to convert you" stuff under his office door, because presumably they were freaked out about what he was saying about Christianity and had no idea he was Christian (he never brought up that he was Christian, or a minister, or frankly the fact that he's a pretty big deal really, somewhat famous guy. He just taught the class, never said much about his own beliefs).
 
Agreed. I am admittedly somewhat lacking in knowledge of religions outside of those claiming to be Christian, Jewish and Islamic input would be good. (Although, on a somewhat related note, it seems like more and more people are becoming their own "religion", that is, holding their own unique set of beliefs. That's a pretty big change from the norm.)
 
...it seems like more and more people are becoming their own "religion", that is, holding their own unique set of beliefs. That's a pretty big change from the norm.

A pretty big change from recent norms, but I think you'd find that the early history of this country provides evidence of a similar growth in independent philosophical thought around 200 years ago. Once those American colonies that became the US gained their independence, folks began questioning in earnest all the organized religions of the day, and lots of fringe "cults" sprang up and existed for a little while - although most weren't quite as into mysticism as are some of what we are seeing develop these days - back in the early 1800's they tended to at least use mainstream Protestant Christian thought as a jumping off point. Of course several of them endured a few generations, and they form the basis for a couple of our modern "established" religious denominations.