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Questions about Hops and Oak in cider (or other)??

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E

EJM3

Honey Master
Registered Member
Nov 21, 2013
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The Boozevarian Village of Leavenworth WA
OK, I just made another version of saved cyser, but this time it is just saved cider. The apples are a mix of: Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, Gala, Jonathan, Braeburn and a few slightly unripe D'Anjou pears. All from a local orchardist that sells them out of his little roadside stand. And all of them frozen and thawed a couple times. I just thawed them one last time and ran them through my juicer, the Jack LaLanne one died and I went back to the little Braun I have been using for 4 years already. It took me 3 days, but I got ~6 gallons, of which 5 gallons are fermenting currently.

The process took me a total of 4 days to get all the juice extracted and I had another batch of cyser already done and clearing, so several things all happened at once (kinda-sorta). First I racked the cyser, then added the first 1 gallon of cider to the fermenting bucket, and 2 more each day for 2 more days, reserving 1 for me and an additional 1/2 Gallon to add later. The SG of them all together is 1.053. I have to say that taking an already fermenting batch and just pitching it into continuously larger amounts of must is the way to go!

This is all going VERY fast and I can't wait to taste the final product. BUT I also know that there is not enough bitter and sharp apples to round this one out. So I was going to toss in some med+ toast French oak chips (all they have around here :sad10:) I thought. Then I was at my LHBS today getting more necessities of life and lo-n-behold there was something I had been curious about and decided to grab a 2oz pack of US Fuggle hops. I know that I am not going for the bitterness too much, I think:confused:. I was going to try another route as hop bitterness is not really my thing, but the descriptions of the flavor and aroma capabilities without too much if any bitterness captivated me anyway.

I will have to beg the help of those experienced with US Fuggle hops, or even just hops in general, to point me to some resources on what the bloody arsed efin `ell I'm going to do with them to get the results I want and need!

Next time I may be able to get some crab apples to toss into the mix.

As of 1:10AM PST I got a gravity reading of 1.015...
 
what about "dry hopping". Put the hops (perhaps 1 oz?) in a muslin bag with a couple of sanitized marbles and attach sanitized fishing line to the bag. Drop the bag in a carboy and rack your cider onto the bag. The line will not prevent a good seal with the bung. After about one week remove the bag... You will have added the flavor and aroma of the hops to the cider - not the bitterness. Never used fuggle hops in cider but have used Nelson Sauvin... Oh, and I would add the hops after the active fermentation has ended. I think the fermentation will simply expel much of the aromatic and flavor molecules.
 
Using Fuggles for your desired aroma but no bitterness is easy. Just toss em in after primary fermentation is over (it's called dry hopping). Bitterness only comes from boiling the hops. No boil, no bitter.


Better brewing through science!
 
bernardsmith said:
what about "dry hopping". Put the hops (perhaps 1 oz?) in a muslin bag with a couple of sanitized marbles and attach sanitized fishing line to the bag. Drop the bag in a carboy and rack your cider onto the bag. The line will not prevent a good seal with the bung. After about one week remove the bag... You will have added the flavor and aroma of the hops to the cider - not the bitterness. Never used fuggle hops in cider but have used Nelson Sauvin... Oh, and I would add the hops after the active fermentation has ended. I think the fermentation will simply expel much of the aromatic and flavor molecules.
Click to expand...

OK, so about 1 week to extract the flavor/aroma compounds, got it. And got the bag and marbles already, so it'll be hop time tonight then. The ferment has almost finished ~1.012 last night... Thanks!

loveofrose said:
Using Fuggles for your desired aroma but no bitterness is easy. Just toss em in after primary fermentation is over (it's called dry hopping). Bitterness only comes from boiling the hops. No boil, no bitter.

Better brewing through science!
Click to expand...

Love the "No boil, No bitter". But I thought I read somewhere that also adding the hops after the boil (flame out?), but still very hot was another way to extract some more flavor and aroma compounds without the bitter, as well as the dry hopping. Maybe I should take a brewing course for beer sometime (the local college offers them at times), get a different perspective on matters.

WVMJack said:
Off topic, but have you looked at contacting some of the craft cidermakers in WA to see if you can source some real cidermaking cider? WVMJ
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I have tried all of the cideries out here that can be had at within say a 1 hour drive (my partner was willing for that) and all of them have told me something of the lines like: "We use all of our pressing to make XYZ brands and don't sell to the public, go to the liquor store to buy some" or "Our cider is all sold to the local cideries, ask them for raw cider or go to the liquor store" then there is "our apples/cider go to make OUR XYZ cider, you can buy it in the store". The chain here seems to go from orchard, to cidery, to store, then buy commercial products only. I've asked at at least 10 orchards since last year, and 3 local cideries, it's all sopped up to the last dribble of juice and the pectic fiber goes to making other products. Nothing for the public, all private business only.

Kinda bizarre since I am in the apple capital of WA state too! But no, everyone here sells either their apples, cider or both to commercial enterprises exclusively. I tell ya it's all about "Big Ag" and "Big Business" nowadays...

So I am stuck buying apples for eating and trying to modify them to my likings. Then again beggars can't be choosers as they say, so I just buy what I can, when I can, if I can and make the best out of it. We have some super potent crab apples out back, but they are smaller than a marble and are almost liquid (in a bad way) after about 25 freeze thaw cycles outside now. Everything else feral either did not produce this year, or the animals got to them (the fires the last 2 years have been horrible), plus a 5 week vacation during harvest time didn't help either. So my freebie selection went this year to the animals.



OK SG is 1.009 as of a few minutes ago, and ph is 3.9. The flavor of apples is there but faint, it is thin and watery tasting even with the yeast in suspension, the color has faded considerably. There was some sulfur stink yesterday with the SG ~ 1.035 so I added some energizer, and was rewarded with 26 points of gravity drop in 24 hours! YIKES! The airlock has a nice pleasant glork, glug from every few seconds to more than 1 a second, slowing down now. This should be an interesting experiment in saving frozen apples from composting at least. And rampant experimentalism is even better, so fuggles for some and oak all around.
 
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Man that sucks, I know there is a high demand out there for cider apples, look like you are going to have to keep scrounging for apples. You can graft an apple you like onto some of the limbs of your crabapple tree and get enough for at least to blend with your other apples. WVMJ
 
Our crab is a macro bonsai, I keep it trimmed to a loft 6 feet in height and ~3 1/2 wide in a semi-lollipop effect. It was a rescue from the local nursery that we ended up planting where we just moved the old compost bin from (~10 years the same place), and we did NOT want a ginormous scraggle patch tree to take care of, so it was decided to top it at 6 feet. Now it's just trying to cut the suckers off fast enough!

Great idea there! My partner owned an organic pear orchard for 7 years but he never grafted any in that time there, it was an already established orchard of some 40+ years at that time so no need. We as a bonus do have another apple tree on the property, but it has not put out an edible apple in the 30+ years my partner has owned this property (and it was already 30+ years previous to him buying the house). We mainly use it as a fence in the Spring & Summer, and I weave wicker fencing ~2 feet high from them in the Spring for around the property as well when we give it a butch cut (or is that butcher it?). It also has a swing that I attached to it a few years ago, and a few bird feeders. But we have been talking about grafting it, problem is finding the proper lackeys (lack of lackeys?) that can at least show us how its done. If the graft doesn't take the year I do it I'll try again the next year. Plus lots of sites will get grafted and any we don't want will be nipped in the bud as it were...

So the honey-do-list now has "find appropriate lackeys for grafting apple tree". I think we have our friends over in a couple weeks that know how, too late this year, but next year is gonna happen ding dang darnit! We will not do a complete work over, just the sections facing us that we can harvest. I may even try and espalier the grafts that take to make management of them easier, or should I say I'll have someone implement my designs (literal and figurative).

I tried the song and dance last year with trying to get fresh pressed cider, this year is a bust too, so next year I'll take measures and graft as well as search out every free and cheap source of apples and pears again next year. There are always quince for florals when cooked and tannins raw if I can find some... So many things to get in place next year permitting...
 
OK by tomorrow the ferment should be finished up to the point I will be thinking about racking it to secondary with a small amount of the yeast and topping up with the reserved (settling) remaining sweet cider. All for a 5 gallon batch of hopped oaked cider that will be given some further attention by trying my hand at sur lie/battonage again. I'll drop in some sanitized marbles so the battonage part will be easy without having to open the carboy. The next problem is how much fine lees to use for the sur lie, not too much I would think, a little can go a long way. I found that out after doing it for the first time. It'll be a good Winter project for me at the very least.

So would this look like a decent starting of a plan:

After fermentation is over rack to secondary ontop of oak & hops.
Let sit for ~3 days then start sampling daily untill I like it.
Rack again adding in some sealed refrigerated yeast from the bucket.
Add some sterilized marbles to help the battonage.
Stick to my battonage schedule.
And then I'll end up with "Sur Lie Cyder" ;D

The next problem is the amount of hops and oak to add to the fray here.

I was reading that they recommend using 1oz Med+ French oak chip per gallon, but not sure if that is high or low in other peoples experience?? This have no structure at all now, just alcoholic lightly apple water.

The entire sachet (2oz) of hops will go in (this is lacking flavor and aroma).
And does 3oz Med+ French oak chips seem too much, those impart their flavors FAST if I recall rightly.
 
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Grafting is easy, the cleft graft will be mostly what you need I think, cheap to get supplies, scions are also cheap, fedco and others sell scions from interesting apples for cider. Good luck, start ordering your scions and lining up your sources, the demand grows every year and some places are already selling out of trees. WVMJ
 
What would be a couple of good varieties for someone who likes the English style ciders better than the American alcopop schlock? I really liked the Crispin Brown's Lane . Bittersweet was the kind they used, apparently with some brett flavors in it too (YUMM!). So bittersweet & bittersharp for sure, and any other of the sharps and/or sweets to go along with them. This tree has been trained along a fence for a good 20' one direction, and ~10' on the other side of the trunk. Most of the growth we get is from suckers growing straight up ~10 a year. I'll see about a pic later...
 
OK after looking at the best way to utilize oak chips I am going to get them soaking in some water (less bitter apparently), then pop them in the fermentor tonight.
Wait for a good oak flavor to develop, rack onto the hops.
Wait for flavor development, rack onto sulfite & sorbate (this is low ABV so it'll need that!).
Sur lie/battonage for the Winter/Spring, and bottle around Summer (around my B-Day in July).

Here is a quote from grapestompers.com: Two to four ounces per six gallons is about the right amount.

So the addition of 3oz may be a bit much and I'll go with 2oz instead. This is pretty watery thin stuff right now. Only structure it had was from the pectin inside it in the first place...
 
You've got the right idea using apples at least, a lot of other cider makers I know use store-bought apple juice with substandard results. Bummer about the cider makers not wanting to supply anything! Here near Melbourne apparently the cider makers/apple growers are much more willing to sell juice to yoiu.

It sounds like from most of the apples you've used you'll get almost all fermentable sugars. To up the tannin levels in your cider (without resorting to black tea/cinnamon sticks as other cider makers do), try sourcing some Granny Smiths or Pink Ladies - both have enough tannins for cider. Alternatively, waltz into the store, find a few unusual varieties of apples and do a taste test - you'll be looking for bitter and astringent flavours, the sort you sometimes get from an apple's skin rather than body.
 
Down the street from us is a house that has 2 crab apple trees that we usually gather from, but they are moosh. And the ones in the store are all dessert types, or a few baking, but nothing with the bittering tannins I need and want. I'll go take a second look at our crab and see if there is something still viable... Thanks!
 
Don't rule out Bradford pears. I know everyone says they are not edible, but I've been eating them and they are wonderful. They fruit right about now and have a great astringency that is a wonderful component to mead. Shhhh! All above is a foragers secret !


Better brewing through science!
 
OK secured 12oz of organic Pacific North West cranberries for my soon to be "Oaked Hopped Cranberry Apple Cider". The apple is so indistinct that I may just add some homemade apple concentrate (kind of an apple cider bochet). I plan to run the cranberries through the juicer and add the juice. Now I just have to figure out how much without too much. Say 4oz juiced to add without overwhelming the US Fuggles and oak??

This is really starting to take shape. Any other suggestions to get more apple flavoring?

Thanks for all the help everyone! It's great to be able to collaborate from around the globe (good thing I have sleep problems, I guess :p).
 
Maybe I can take a page out of the wine makers book and chaptalize with a bit of piloncillo (Panela to some), or even azucar morena do add more flavor as well as some sugars to boost me over the 11% mark so I can age these a bit. I think the honey will have to wait until next month at this rate so I need cheap options. I do plan to set Indiana Jones like traps to get to my cellar (fermentarium cabinet for now), and thus prevent two legged cellar rats from prevailing.

I was thinking of actually using our basement as my cellar for items except for the fact that it can get cold enough down there that I have to worry about freezing (we run the water sometimes). Or these is the problem with the sewer line clogging and backing up into the basement (not raw sewage, storm run off kind of stuff), or the fact that if it is too wet outside it can flood down there if the drain valve does not work properly. So lots of SNAFU. The garage freezes all the time. And the house fluctuates from ~50ºF if we forget the heater to over 85ºF in the Summer. So it looks like "stash it where you can".

I juiced the cranberries, looked at the result and said "`eff it and juiced the entire 12oz and added the resultant fluid to my ferment. Yummy!!
 
Just was sitting here talking to my partner and we started to talk about the apple grafting, he thinks that it is a great idea, so I guess I have to bone up on my grafting technique for the Spring. Thanks WVMJack for the links. I'll be studying the links I generated over the next few weeks along with an overly filled boat load of other items due to my overly active autodidacticism and the internet.

The oak chips and the cranberry juice are all added. The bubbles are slowing down so I know the ferment is slowing, probably time to get to the store and buy my piloncillo tonight or tomorrow! I'll probably just drop some chunks in and let the yeastie beasties figure out where the food is for themselves. I'm not going to spend an hour or so trying to crush and dissolve them just to have the yeast go bonkers on them anyway I do it. Less work for me, not too much more for them, hungry little buggers they are will find and demolish them in no time...
 
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