All grain brewing help

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kace069

NewBee
Registered Member
Mar 21, 2004
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I know there is a few AG brewers here at the forum. So I need a little help. Did my 3rd AG today everything went 1000% better than before but my efficiency dropped. I went from 40%, 45%, to 25% today.
Everyone at the HB forum I usually post these questions at are treating me like I dreamed up All Grain brewing yesterday and decided to brew today. I have done my home work but I have no pratical experience.
Here is my thread at the other forum.
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?p=291404#291404

Any insight other than buy more books and do more reseacrh, as if a year wasn't enough, will be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Good morning Kace,

Not knowing the grian bill, mash schedule or preboil gravity, it's hard to say what happened.

There really is little need to buy brewing software with all the great tools to be found online.

A couple that should help;

This mash Calculator is a good one.

Bottle Priming widget.

I've read quite a bit about all grain brewing, I still refer to this often before starting a new braggot.

Post the details and maybe we can find out what happened.

Dmntd
 
It's hard to give specific advice without knowing the details of your procedure and your equipment set up. Without reading the attached thread in detail, here are some thoughts...

You seem to be losing a lot of temp in your mashtun. If you are using the keg/mashtun be sure to keep it covered and insulate it as best as possible. The cheap way is to wrap an old coat or quilt around the keg (assuming you are not using direct-flame). The more expensive way is to buy some flexible insulation. If you want to continue to use a cooler, you may want to invest in one that is not damaged.

Be sure that you are getting a good crush on your grains. One of the most common reasons for low efficiency is a poor crush. If you are having your grains crushed by a supplier, keep in mind that they may not have their mill set correctly and that the crush can vary from batch to batch and from one supplier to another. If you do a search on the NB forum, you can dig up pictures of properly crushed grains for reference.

What is your water/grain ratio? If your mash is too thick, you can get a lot of temperature variations and uneven enzyme activity. The mash should be thin enough that you can get a good, even mix with no doughballs. Wait at least 5 minutes after dough-in to be sure that your temperature has stabilized before monitoring.

When calculating out strike water temperatures be sure to factor in the starting temperature of your grain. For instance, if your strike water temperature is not high enough for the starting temperature of your grain, you will see a pretty significant decrease in temperature until it stabilizes. This drop in temperature can be confused with a temperature loss due to your system.

Be sure to compensate for water absroption loss when you determine your strike and sparge water calculations. The sparge water volume becomes less of a problem if you fly sparge since you can just overadd water to your HLT and keep sparging until you hit your target pre-boil volume.

You can try to fly sparging with your set up to see if you get a better efficiency than with batch sparging. I personally fly sparge...Not that I think that it is better, it is just what I have always done. When I have batch sparged with my system, I did not get a very good efficiency (50% vs. a typical 80%).

Keep in mind that it is very important to define your system when brewing all grain. What I mean by define is that you need to know things like dead space volumes, volume loss to transfers and boil-off rates as well as being able to accurately measure volumes pre- and post-boil in your kettle. Knowing the details will make it much easier to trouble shoot and adjust your recipes as needed.

As for software, I have to say that I highly recommend software for serious AG brewing. It is by no means a necessity, but the ~$23 investment will pay for itself through more accurate recipe formulations (i.e. less waste of materials), time savings and peace of mind. Beersmith and Promash are the most popular and both are good. I have been using Promash for about a year and I absolutely love it. All your necessary calculations and conversions (including temperature corrections for your hydrometer) are in one package. All the specifics for the most common grains and hops are also built in to the sofware. Once you define your brew system, you can set the defaults (i.e. boil off volumes, extraction efficiency, etc.) to YOUR system. It makes formulating recipes a breeze and it is nice to instantly see the affect of varying ingredients (hops, grains or sugars) without having to redo long-hand calculations.

Good luck.
 
KACE069,

I looked at your link a bit more. What did you say your post-boil volume was? If you were anywhere near 5 gallons your starting SG of 1.040 is about what you would expect with your grain bill. How did you calculate that your efficiency was only 25%? Me thinks that you are okay and that your only fault was that you did not follow the mantra of homebrewers...RELAX.

Don't panic...After you get a through a few more batches you will be more comfortable with your system and the process in general. It sounds like you have not had to throw out any of your batches yet...That is encouraging and things will only get better.

Don't worry about doing any more reading for the time being...You will just end up getting conflicting opinions on simple processes and you may end up second guessing yourself to death.

Peace.
 
You can always just use a rule of thumb calculation to let you know how your mash efficiency is. It is very simple to calculate, see formula below:

Pts/Lb = ((Final Volume of Wort) * Starting Gravity)/ (Lbs of Grain in Mash)

Here is an example:

Final Volume of Wort - 5 gallons
Starting Gravity - 1.040
Lbs of Grain in Mash - 8.5lbs

Pts/Lb = ( 5 gallons * 40 pts/gallon ) / 8.5 lb
= 23.5 pts/lb

If you can get between 27 and 33 pts/lb I would say you are getting a very good efficiency. Some brewers get hung up on a high efficiency, I would rather have a predictable efficiency so it is easier to calculate future grain bills. Adding an extra pound of grain is going to cost you less than a buck. Not a big deal.

seeGarzz
 
I used all the formulas in Hot to Brew. On the ppg I got 9.8 by my calculations and was suppose to have 40.8 I think at max extraction.

I think I am going to just boil water tonight and see what kind of post boil volume I get. I have been giving my wort a .5 hour boil prior to my 60 minute hop schedule.

I started playing with beers smith a little today. It doesn't list my system so I just put it down as a 15 gallon brew tree.
It puts 9% boil off in for me, so can I trust it or do I have to go through with this boil tonight?
 
Kace - I know this is an old thread and you may have already figured this out, but in BeerSmith, you can set a personalized 'My Equipment' with, well, your own equipment! Just click on the 'Equipment' icon and then click on the 'My Equipment' option. That will open up the a window where you need to put in the specifics of the equipment you have.

I am just getting into all grain brewing (going to be making my first batch - a Red Tyre Ale Clone - on 09/16/2006) and have been playing around with BeerSmith a lot the past couple weeks. I like it better than ProMash and actually ended up buying it yesterday .....

- GL63
 
Yeah I tried both the promash and beersmith trials and found beersmith to be much more user friendly and plan to buy it in the future.
I think I have narrowed my problems down to my water. So next brew session will be with RO water so I am going to have to make some water chemistry changes. But I finally got hooked up with another AG brewer so now I have some one to bounce things of off. Its very nice, except for the 60 or so miles that seperate us. :sad10:
 
I know what you mean Kace, but hey ..... everything is relative - right? There is someone in my department who lives in Grass Lake and drives 105 miles EACH WAY to Auburn Hills ! A lot of people do question his sanitiy however .....

My son-in-law is going to assist with my endeavors this coming Saturday, and although he only has 4 batches of extract brewing under his belt, he is very much interested in all grain brewing. He and I have both researched, studied, and 'brewed-in-our-heads" many times, so I'm thinking positive. Thank God for the Internet! :icon_thumleft:

Stay tuned ... I'll keep you posted with the results ..... or lack thereof!

By the way, here is my grain bill:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 52.8 %
4.00 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 30.2 % (Roasted in oven for 25 minutes @350 degrees.)
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 7.5 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 3.8 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.25 lb Special Roast (50.0 SRM) Grain 1.9 %
0.75 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 19.9 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50%] (30 min) Hops 6.6 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50%] (15 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
0.50 oz Williamette [5.50%] (5 min) Hops 1.7 IBU
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) Yeast-Ale

Single Infusion / Fly Sparge with a 90 minute boil per the recipe/procedure I got off HomeBrewTalk.Com

-GL63
 
Damn this is making me thirsty...

GL63, are you planning to rest your amber grains for a couple weeks or so? I am reading Radical Brewing and the author suggested letting the home roasted grains sit for a couple weeks for the harsh aromas/flavors to dissipate.

Which yeast are you planning to use?
 
Yabodie - I was planning on roasting the grain the night before we brew ... guess I'm not familiar with the need to dissipate harsh aromas and flavors. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but I'm confident that neither my son-in-law or myself have that refined of a pallet to notice the difference ..... hell, I've never even had a Fat Tyre Ale before. :laughing4:

The only thing close to a beer that I've made is a single batch of JoeM's Basic Braggot with DME which I made on 09/06/2006, which is currently bottle-conditioning. So I obviously have a lot to learn. All Grain Brewing sounds very appealing to me so that is why I'm jumping into it with both feet.

BTW, I'm using the yeast that was recommended by the poster of the recipe: Wyeast Labs #1272 - American Ale II.

Stay tuned for updates..... Can I post BEER batches in the Brew Log? Oskaar? Vicky ??
 
GL63,
Let me know how it turns out. All grain does seem appealing, however, for moment I will be sticking with extract and specialty grains until I get the beer brewing legs under me. I am sure down the road the first beers, and mead for that matter, will seem harsh and green, but damn tasty at the time!!

:cheers:
 
Yabodie,
now that I am all grain brewing, and things aren't exactly going right, mainly my efficicny, I would still tell a new brewer to go all the way and start brewing all grain. That is if they are a connisuer of fine ales. It is not nearly as hard as it seems. I made a tone of extract brews, some good, some not so good. I wish I would have switched to all grain a long time ago. With powerful outdoor propane burners my brew day isn't much longer than it was when I was extract brewing.

I think I have all my issues sorted out, I have 8 AG's down. i think a change in my water will fix my effeciency problems. Right now I think I am out of time until spring but I want to try to get atleast 1 or 2 more brews in before winter. I can't wait. I love AG brewing.
 
I didn't read the rest of the posts (just your latest one) but have you looked into your crush as to the problem of low efficiency? That's usually the case more times than not. You can also try a mash out, if you aren't already, to squeeze out those extra points.
 
Yup, I got a finer crush, got better at hitting my temps, mashed out, even went from batch sparging to fly sparging and my eff. isn't going anywhere. So water is the next logical change, near as I can figure.
I am open to suggestions.
 
Kace069 - What aspects of your water do you think might be affecting your efficiency? Water profile can affect your flavor (pH and tannin extraction, mineral content and flavor) but I am not sure how it would affect efficiency.

I would highly recommend spending $6 on a good lab thermometer to calibrate your brewing thermometer. I went through a rough patch in the past where I could not figure out my poor efficiency after switching equipment (new mill and mashtun). At first, I thought that I had a crush problem. After re-adjusting my mill gap, I did get a small increase but it was still not good. I finally did a calibration check and found that I was 15 degrees off (low) on the mash thermometer. After correcting the problem, my efficiency increased 30%!

Peace.
 
Kace,
I just bottled my first ale I did at home. I missed the OG and FG, bit darker than what I was shooting for, but the taste is nice. Will see what happens after 2 weeks for carbonation. For all grain are you using a sculpture or the rubber maid coolers? Once I get the outdoor burner, I am considering the cooler set up. Funds will be tight with two kids for the moment, so I will be looking for cheaper alternatives or keep with extract for the next couple years when daycare costs drop off.

By the way making bread with the spent grains is NICE!!

:cheers:
 
Hey Kace,

I agree with HomeBrew on the temperature as I have gone through the same thing myself. Seems that the dial brew thermometers I've used are generally off by several degrees.

Some quick questions to help me visualize:

Are you doing infusion, step-infusion, or decoction mashing?

Are you vorlaufing?

Is your mash tun insulated at all, and do you have multiple thermometers (low and high on the tun)?

Do you have a burner under the mash/lauter tun?

Lemme know,

Thanks,

Oskaar
 
Hey Kace,

I don't see how water will affect your efficiency. I don't even think you have a problem. I think your math was off on this one. I didn't read the whole thread from the NB Forum but some of those folks there didn't seem to do the math at all.

If this was a 5 gallon batch with 8# 2 row and 0.5# crystal and your OG = 1.040, then you got about 66% efficiency according to ProMash. I prefer batch sparging and tend get about 68-70% with my equipment and am very pleased with the resulting beers (and only 20 minutes sparge time). I'd be concerned with a temperature loss of more than 2-3 degrees over 60 minutes, but I wouldn't make a big deal about 66% efficiency.


Prosit!
Kirk

PS - I highly recommend ProMash or other brewing software. Brewing math can get complicated. And I'd rather be drinking homebrew.