Brewing Beer With Wine Yeast?
- Thread starter evenstill
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This is definitely a question for the brewers on this list, but I think wine yeasts have been used for making barley wines. Check out barley wine styles.
I've made a high gravity stout with EC-1118 twice.
Here are some things to consider:
1 Ale yeasts contribute to the beer style by producing certain flavor & aroma compounds: particular esters, phenols, etc. Wine yeasts won't necessarily do this, since they're not meant to do so.
2 Ale yeasts often poop out a little sooner than wine yeasts, meaning the residual sugar balance might be a little different.
So certain styles of beer lend themselves better to using wine yeasts, namely those with tons of flavor contributions that don't come from the yeast, and those which have an appropriate sweet/bitter balance even if the wine yeast is a little more attenuative. Barleywines and the like work well for this since they often contain lots of malty flavors and end up with a lot of RS no matter what. Wheat beers are probably a bad choice since the yeast character is very important.
Anyway it does sound like you're choosing the right path with "big beers". I used 1118 due to it's high alcohol tolerance (good for bottle priming) and relatively neutral flavor characteristics. D47 might work great too, it's worth a shot.
My tips: make sure you pitch enough yeast (I've made that mistake before) and do proper aeration. Nutrient additions are less intensive in beer worts. Sulfur smells are not necessarily evil. Pitch cold! And make sure your yeast is healthy enough at the end to accomplish bottle priming, if you go that route--don't get too close to the alcohol limit for your yeast.
Here are some things to consider:
1 Ale yeasts contribute to the beer style by producing certain flavor & aroma compounds: particular esters, phenols, etc. Wine yeasts won't necessarily do this, since they're not meant to do so.
2 Ale yeasts often poop out a little sooner than wine yeasts, meaning the residual sugar balance might be a little different.
So certain styles of beer lend themselves better to using wine yeasts, namely those with tons of flavor contributions that don't come from the yeast, and those which have an appropriate sweet/bitter balance even if the wine yeast is a little more attenuative. Barleywines and the like work well for this since they often contain lots of malty flavors and end up with a lot of RS no matter what. Wheat beers are probably a bad choice since the yeast character is very important.
Anyway it does sound like you're choosing the right path with "big beers". I used 1118 due to it's high alcohol tolerance (good for bottle priming) and relatively neutral flavor characteristics. D47 might work great too, it's worth a shot.
My tips: make sure you pitch enough yeast (I've made that mistake before) and do proper aeration. Nutrient additions are less intensive in beer worts. Sulfur smells are not necessarily evil. Pitch cold! And make sure your yeast is healthy enough at the end to accomplish bottle priming, if you go that route--don't get too close to the alcohol limit for your yeast.
One idea was to make a double chocolate coffee stout using d-47.AKueck said:
I’ve read that d-47 has a lot in common with Belgian yeast strains so was thinking about making a modified Belgian honey white with an ABV of around 9% using d-47.AKueck said:
Since the d-47 will likely ferment the beer very dry I had thought about using a non-fermentable sugar like lactose to improve sweetness and mouthfeel. What do you all think? Should I use another non-fermentable sweetener (maltodextrin, splenda, stevia, etc)?AKueck said:
Thanks,
evenstill
Post up your recipe before you decide to add lactose etc. Depending on your ingredients and process, the amount of unfermentable malt sugars will vary widely. Personally I would rather change the malt sugars rather than introduce lactose or (ack!) splenda.
I've used Red Star Champagne in Barleywines and Belgians when I didn't get the attenuation I wanted from the beer yeast. Never as the primary yeast though. And even then, on reflection, it was because I didn't pitch a big enough starter to begin with. Since I've been making bigger starters, I haven't had to re-pitch with wine yeast later in the ferment. Even on beers in the 11%-13%abv range.
My last problem child, a belgian golden with an OG of 1.140 started with White Labs Belgian Blend (can't remember the number but it was blend of three different abbey style yeasts). I pitched it with only a small 1 pint starter and didn't give it all the oxygenation it needed. A month later it was only down to 1.080 so I added some of the champagne yeast. That took it down to about 1.050. I added about two cups of vigorously fermenting must from my Ginger Meth (meth was at 18% at that point) and threw that in the beer. Down to 1.035 and sat there for months. Finally cultivated the yeast from a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin Oro del Calabaza to see what the funk would do to it. Last I checked, it's down to 1.010! I'm leaving it alone for at least another 6 months at least to let the bugs in the JP yeast do their magic.
My last problem child, a belgian golden with an OG of 1.140 started with White Labs Belgian Blend (can't remember the number but it was blend of three different abbey style yeasts). I pitched it with only a small 1 pint starter and didn't give it all the oxygenation it needed. A month later it was only down to 1.080 so I added some of the champagne yeast. That took it down to about 1.050. I added about two cups of vigorously fermenting must from my Ginger Meth (meth was at 18% at that point) and threw that in the beer. Down to 1.035 and sat there for months. Finally cultivated the yeast from a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin Oro del Calabaza to see what the funk would do to it. Last I checked, it's down to 1.010! I'm leaving it alone for at least another 6 months at least to let the bugs in the JP yeast do their magic.
I brew a really tasty belgian wit with a fairly high SG (1.070 or something) http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_43.html is the basic recipe I use.
I would recommend sticking with a nice belgian wit yeast (white labs or wyeast) but making a starter or even pitching 2 portions of the yeast. I love D-47 for my mead, but I think using it in beer will make the beer to dry.
With the ale yeast, you get the desired attenuation and the subtle flavors/aromas from the yeast itself.
I'm looking forward to starting a batch of my "Witty Twister" (patent pending) Belgian Wit next week!
cheers,
vahan
I would recommend sticking with a nice belgian wit yeast (white labs or wyeast) but making a starter or even pitching 2 portions of the yeast. I love D-47 for my mead, but I think using it in beer will make the beer to dry.
With the ale yeast, you get the desired attenuation and the subtle flavors/aromas from the yeast itself.
I'm looking forward to starting a batch of my "Witty Twister" (patent pending) Belgian Wit next week!
cheers,
vahan
I had always understood (possibly incorrectly) that beer yeast are able to metabolize maltose and that wine yeast don't do it well, and that wine yeast produce more acid. Wouldn't using wine yeast in a beer wort tend to leave beers with a lot of residual sugar, and too much acidity?
that sounds like a question for :icon_king: Oskaar!
Lactose is a good addition to sweeten beer a little (used in Sweet Stouts or Milk Stouts), and maltodextrin is good to increase body and mouthfeel (I like to use it in oatmeal stout, which should have a rich mouthfeel).
vahan
Lactose is a good addition to sweeten beer a little (used in Sweet Stouts or Milk Stouts), and maltodextrin is good to increase body and mouthfeel (I like to use it in oatmeal stout, which should have a rich mouthfeel).
vahan
Medsen Fey said:
I remember reading something similar about starters. Beer yeast can lose the ability to metabolize maltose if grown in a simple sugar starter. It would stand to reason that wine yeast might not do well with some larger sugars. Maybe?
Medsen,
The only thing I can report on this is that whenever I end up with too high of an FG from the beer yeast, the Pasteur Champagne will always knock it down even further.
Here's another case in point: I made a barleywine with the White Labs WLP099 yeast, a beer yeast that supposedly will go to 25%. OG was 1.130. This yeast took it down to about 1.060 after 1 month and it sat there for another month. I added the Champagne and it went down to 1.030 in another month.
So, I can't offer empirical evidence, only anecdotal. It is a common practice though amongst beer brewers.
There was somebody a few months ago that played with that WLP099 on a braggot. Was it Smoky?
The only thing I can report on this is that whenever I end up with too high of an FG from the beer yeast, the Pasteur Champagne will always knock it down even further.
Here's another case in point: I made a barleywine with the White Labs WLP099 yeast, a beer yeast that supposedly will go to 25%. OG was 1.130. This yeast took it down to about 1.060 after 1 month and it sat there for another month. I added the Champagne and it went down to 1.030 in another month.
So, I can't offer empirical evidence, only anecdotal. It is a common practice though amongst beer brewers.
There was somebody a few months ago that played with that WLP099 on a braggot. Was it Smoky?
Wildaho,
When you make braggots and barley wines with wine yeast, do they go completely dry or do they typically leave you with residual sugar?
When you make braggots and barley wines with wine yeast, do they go completely dry or do they typically leave you with residual sugar?
I haven't made a braggot yet (it's on the list!) but on the barleywine, no. The champagne yeast still leaves significant residual sugar. That particular BW ended at 1.030. I let it bulk age for 8 months before bottling and the FG didn't change. When I bottled it, I used more of the champagne yeast to carbonate it along with some corn sugar. Two years later and still no bottle bombs.
This one ended at 13% so it hadn't reached the alcohol toxicity level of the champagne yeast. So I would say that while the wine yeasts will eat sugars that beer yeasts can't, it still won't eat everything a wort has to offer.
The same was true on the Belgian Golden example I offered earlier. The champagne yeast took it down further but not all the way. The addition of the Brettanomyces and whatever other bugs that were in that bottle of Jolly Pumpkin took it even further.
This one ended at 13% so it hadn't reached the alcohol toxicity level of the champagne yeast. So I would say that while the wine yeasts will eat sugars that beer yeasts can't, it still won't eat everything a wort has to offer.
The same was true on the Belgian Golden example I offered earlier. The champagne yeast took it down further but not all the way. The addition of the Brettanomyces and whatever other bugs that were in that bottle of Jolly Pumpkin took it even further.
