Dark Braggot planning stage

[chiguire]

Hey all,

I am gearing up to throw a braggot into the fermenter in about a week, and would be thrilled for some input about the design.

First a run down on my beer design philosophy and background: Beer is really my first passion and mead comes in second. I keep things simple, and I have been staying away from the "kitchen sink" approach. I have been using BeerSmith as a brewing software.

My goals: A dark roasty, toasty, heady braggot with great mouthfeel...

Planned recipe

6 gallons

7.2 # Pale Malt (2 row)
2.1 # Roasted Barley
1.2 # flaked barley
3.6 ounces of Northern Brewer Hops (all bittering-no flavor or aroma additions)
10.80 # Honey

Liquid yeast-California Ale (White Labs #WLP001)

IBU 97.5
IBU/SG .917


Target OG 1.106
Target FG 1.023
Target ABV 10.5-11

 

[AToE]

I've never had something with an IBU that high, think the highest I've had is about 70, but sounds good to me, super bitter.

 

[chiguire]

Maybe too bitter?

I am hoping that the residual sweetness of the honey balances it.
Generally barley wines, stouts, and imperial stouts are hopped to fairly high levels to counter balance the heavy maltiness, but I may be off my game...

Other thoughts?

 

[AToE]

You won't get any residual sweetness from the honey, it's nearly 100% fermentable. You'll end up dryer than you would have had that SG been all from grain because of this, so an 11% ABV braggot will be a lot drier than an11% beer.

Or will that yeast not go that high and you're planning on force carbonation?

I know you know that, just pointing it out in case it slipped your mind. I'm not sure what % of your ABV is coming from grain in this bill, but unless you've got some serious unfermentables coming from them I'd take a wild guess at this finishing as much as 10 points lower than your calculations say it should be.

 

[chiguire]

You won't get any residual sweetness from the honey, it's nearly 100% fermentable. You'll end up dryer than you would have had that SG been all from grain because of this, so an 11% ABV braggot will be a lot drier than an11% beer.

Or will that yeast not go that high and you're planning on force carbonation?

I know you know that, just pointing it out in case it slipped your mind. I'm not sure what % of your ABV is coming from grain in this bill, but unless you've got some serious unfermentables coming from them I'd take a wild guess at this finishing as much as 10 points lower than your calculations say it should be.

Good points. That Ale yeast will go 10-15% and is 73-80% attenuative per whitelabs. So if it attenuate 80% it should finish at 1.02ish...

Maybe I am missing something. Does attenuation depend on mash composition?

Mash composition by weight

Pale malt 33.8%
Roasted Barley 9.86 %

Honey 50.7%

By ABV

Grains 41% of SG
Honey 59% of SG

I'll have to mull over the IBU question... Does anyone want to chime in on whether or not honey will balance bitterness in the same way that maltiness balences bitterness...?

 

[BrewinNColorado]

chiguire-
What honey do you plan on using? I am making s stout braggot as we speak and used a buckwheat/avocado mix. The strong honey really compliments the strong beer.

How much of the beer taste do you want to come through compared to the honey taste? If you want more honey, then you will need to lower the amount of malt and grains that you use. For my batch, I cut the amount of grains in half and used the same amount of malt (4 lbs).

Just my thoughts.

Thanks!
Michael

 

[AToE]

Attenuation totally depends on what you're fermenting. You toss that same yeast into a straight honey or fruit must starting at 1.100 and you'll get 100% attenuation. So for this braggot you'll get it's rated attenuation for the malt portion of the SG, but for the honey portion it will eat it all for sure. Malt versus honey are two totally different beasts in terms of how fermentable they are.

Try plugging your recipe into a beer calculator but leave out the honey - whatever it says your FG will be is probably not far off.

EDIT: also, I'm just saying this because you say "mash" composition - don't put the honey in your mash! I'm sure you just worded that funny, but you won't want to be boiling the honey, and you'd lose some of it to the grainjunk (nice technical term...) unless you sparge really thoroughly. I'd add the honey after cooling the wort/must post boil.

 

[AToE]

Also, I'm not a super experience beer brewer, but I am totally certain about my above statements such as the honey not leaving any residual sugar to balance bitterness - why would the yeast not eat everything they can? The reason they leave residual sugar in beer isn't because of their lack off attenuation abilities (after all, they are able to ferment whatever you add to prime the beer right?) but is due to the unfermentable complex sugars from the malt. Honey's pretty much all simple and easily fermentable sugars.

I love hops, and love hops bitterness, but I think even 60 or 70 IBU would be seriously bitter for this recipe.

 

[chiguire]

EDIT: also, I'm just saying this because you say "mash" composition - don't put the honey in your mash! I'm sure you just worded that funny, but you won't want to be boiling the honey, and you'd lose some of it to the grainjunk (nice technical term...) unless you sparge really thoroughly. I'd add the honey after cooling the wort/must post boil.

Thanks for all of your input, AToE, and good catch on the above.
You are right that I was not planning on mashing the honey, and I should have been more meticulous in my post.

I was planning on putting honey in at flameout- after wort boil is finished.

Thanks for the attenuation info! I am going to have to reduce the hops and readjust things a bit.

 

[chiguire]

chiguire-
What honey do you plan on using? I am making s stout braggot as we speak and used a buckwheat/avocado mix. The strong honey really compliments the strong beer.

How much of the beer taste do you want to come through compared to the honey taste? If you want more honey, then you will need to lower the amount of malt and grains that you use. For my batch, I cut the amount of grains in half and used the same amount of malt (4 lbs).

Just my thoughts.

Thanks!
Michael

Thanks for chiming in. I was going to use a dark wild honey of unknown origin (my grandpa's stash) and maybe cut it with a small percentage of orange blossom.

I want the malt to be dominant upfront with a strong honey undertoe.

What ratio would you suggest to achieve this?

 

[BrewinNColorado]

What ratio would you suggest to achieve this?

This I cannot advise on as this is my first braggot as well. For myself, I am trying not to leave too much honey behind because I fear bottle bombs. As long as there are yeast and sugars in the bottle, they are going to continue to convert it to alcohol, which can lead to bottle bombs. What exactly is too much? I am not sure because I also have never made any sparking meads before. Maybe one of the moderators which I an forever grateful for can chime in on how much honey might be too much for a braggot.

Hope it goes well. Please make sure to keep us posted

Michael

 

[YogiBearMead726]

I figure I should chime in about the IBU issue.

If you're shooting for a really intense barleywine type braggot, that level of bitterness might be nice. I'm a huge, HUGE fan of hops. I've currently got a 1 gal batch that I added fresh hops to (about 4oz), and it's not nearly what I would want out of the hops. Mikkeller and Lagunitas are two companies I can think of that aren't afraid of the high IBU content. And honestly, I think the higher alcohol content itself helps to balance the bitterness. They seem to play off each other, and if you added some for aroma/flavor contribution, it might make even more sense to have that high IBU.

This sounds wonderful, no matter which way you slice it. I wish my grandpa had been a beekeeper with a secret stash of honey I could tap into...

Edit: Stone is another company that came to mind. I'm drinking some 2010 Double Bastard right now which sits at around 11.2% ABV and has an IBU content close to your proposed level, and the caramel notes from the malt are enough (IMHO) to balance the whole brew together.

 

[AToE]

This I cannot advise on as this is my first braggot as well. For myself, I am trying not to leave too much honey behind because I fear bottle bombs. As long as there are yeast and sugars in the bottle, they are going to continue to convert it to alcohol, which can lead to bottle bombs. What exactly is too much? I am not sure because I also have never made any sparking meads before. Maybe one of the moderators which I an forever grateful for can chime in on how much honey might be too much for a braggot.

Hope it goes well. Please make sure to keep us posted

Michael

As far as bottle bombs go it doesn't matter how much honey you use, you could do any ratio of honey to grain you want, right down to almost no malt at all.

Whether it's 90% malt or 1% malt, you're going to ferment it as dry as it can go. This is essential for ANY sparkling beverage where the carbonation is coming from bottle fermentation. After it is as dry as is possible (only unfermentable sugars remain) you will add priming honey and bottle. As such you are in total control of whether or not you get bottle bombs.


Just remember - right now you've got about as much malt as a 5% ABV beer - so this will not have the residual sweetness of an imperial beer, it will have the sweetness of a 5% beer in the style you're doing (again, I'm not familiar with those grains' residual sweetness). As you said of course, Imperial beers have tons and tons of unfermentable sugar, they need lots of bitterness to taste good (in fact I can say I haven't found one bitter enough yet), but this will have probably half the residual sugar of one of those behemoths of sweetness.

100IBU might be a killer beer, I love me some hops, but it might swamp the honey's taste (though aroma might do fine since you're not doing any flavour or aroma hopping).

 

[akueck]

You can tweak the FG a lot higher just by bumping up the mash temperature. That can give you the malty balance to the hop level that you'd typically see in a barleywine. Those attenuation numbers for yeast are essentially bunk, as far as absolute numbers go. It totally depends on what range of sugars you throw at them, and that is entirely in your control. You can also move the FG higher by doing an extended boil (>60 mins) to get some carmelization.

With a FG around 1.020 I don't think 100 IBU is too much. You'll be aging this longer than a 5% beer too, so the intense hop bitterness will fade over time. In fact, I'd say 100 might not be enough, but you're already pushing the practical limit of lupulin solubility as it is.

 

[chiguire]

Really great info and perspectives from everyone! Thanks a bunch.

I am going to let this sit on the brain for a week and then we'll see what shakes out.

 

[Golddiggie]

Got a question here... What, really, makes something a braggot?

I have a honey porter slowly fermenting, that I added extra DME and honey into when making the wort... Basically, 4 pounds dark malt syrup, two pounds dark DME and two pounds clover honey in the mix, along with your required gains and hops (left those amounts unchanged)... I, essentially, wanted something stronger than the recipe called for as the end result (%ABV of about 4.2% seemed really low to me)... Hence adding the extra DME and honey (original called for one pound each)... Fermentation time is extended due to my 'tweaks' but I'm ok with that. I also have an ale fermenting that should be ready before xmas, nice red ale (also added almost a pound of wildflower honey to it)... I guess I'm a bit of a 'honey nut'...

I think I see a braggot in my future...

 

[chiguire]

Got a question here... What, really, makes something a braggot?

I have a honey porter slowly fermenting, that I added extra DME and honey into when making the wort... Basically, 4 pounds dark malt syrup, two pounds dark DME and two pounds clover honey in the mix, along with your required gains and hops (left those amounts unchanged)... I, essentially, wanted something stronger than the recipe called for as the end result (%ABV of about 4.2% seemed really low to me)... Hence adding the extra DME and honey (original called for one pound each)... Fermentation time is extended due to my 'tweaks' but I'm ok with that. I also have an ale fermenting that should be ready before xmas, nice red ale (also added almost a pound of wildflower honey to it)... I guess I'm a bit of a 'honey nut'...

I think I see a braggot in my future...

Its a good question, as braggot generally has a wide latitude of options in the homebrew world.

here is what the the 2008 Beer Judge Certification Program, Style Guidlines says.

Ingredients: A braggot is a standard mead made with both honey and malt providing flavor and fermentable extract. Originally, and alternatively, a mixture of mead and ale. A braggot can be made with any type of honey, and any type of base beer style. The malt component may be derived from grain or malt extracts. The beer may be hopped or not. If any other ingredients than honey and beer are contained in the braggot, it should be entered as an Open Category Mead. Smoked braggots may be entered in this category if using smoked malt or a smoked beer as the base style; braggots made using other smoked ingredients (e.g., liquid smoke, chipotles) should be entered in the Open Category Mead style.

Many beers include honey for subtlety, to bump up gravity, and to carbonate. Braggots need to have a significant amount of honey to make the honey a tangible flavor in the brew.

 

[Golddiggie]

Well, I did double the honey amount for the honey porter... Will see how it tastes when I rack it the first time... I'll get some more honey on hand in case I want to add more honey flavors to the mix... Of course, that's going to extend out the ferment time even more... Was hoping to drink it either end of December or early January, but could be looking at end of January, or sometime in February if I do this... Good thing I started the batch of ale this past weekend... lol