first recipe, comment please

[MattHollingsworth]

So, this is my first recipe.

I'd like to make a basic mead first, BUT, my father in law has some tart cherry trees that'll be filling up soonish, maybe late June to sometime in July. So, I want to take advantage of the fresh fruit and make a cherry melomel. I aim to add the fruit in secondary.

I also want to use fresh honey. And here, where I live, Acacia honey is coming in right now. So, I figured I'd use that.

That said, here's what I'm thinking: A medium mead, fermented with D-47, which I understand may leave a touch of residual sugar. I can backsweeten if need be.

Anyway, here's what I'm thinking at the moment:

14 pounds Acacia Honey
4 gallons water

8 g D-47 (the More Wine packets come in 8 gram satchels).

I will use Go Ferm when rehydrating.

Using Hightest's spreadsheet, it says I should use staggered nutrient additions as follows: DAP and Fermaid K. 4.7 grams of each at pitching, 2.9 grams of each at active ferment, 1.9 at half sugar break, though I was thinking of doing 1/3 sugar break instead.

From what I've read, D 47 isn't a yeast that requires an extra large amount of nutrients. So, what do you guys think of this nutrient schedule?

I'll be fermenting this in the mid 60s with a temp controller setup, probably 64.

Using carbon filtered tap water with 386 ppm bicarbonate.

I will degas during fermentation. Fermenting primary in a 28 liter bucket. I have a 55 liter food grade bucket for secondary to use with the fruit. I will have about 5 kg (11 lbs) of cherries. Not sure if I should use that much. I was thinking of using more like 7 or 8 pounds. I don't want it too be too crazy. But then, reading Schramm, I also don't know if I should use the fruit with the pits. I'd rather not pit them unless it's going to give me a funky flavor. Thoughts? If I *should* remove the pits, how the hell does one go about doing that easily?

And, I don't think I want to heat the fruit to sanitize as I don't have any pectic enzyme. If I age this for a year after the fruit's removed, will it clear even without pectic enzyme if I heat the fruit? Thoughts on sanitizing the fruit if using in secondary? Not necessary? How to process the fruit exactly? I figured maybe a puree, but don't know about pitting them. Then put the puree in a bag in the secondary, flush the secondary with CO2 and rack the mead on top of the fruit and leave it for 2 weeks.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. As for yeast, I have D-47, 71-B, KV1116, QA23 and ICVD254 on hand, as well as 1118 that champagne yeast, but I don't want to use that for anything.

Here are ICVD254 and QA23 for those who haven't heard of them:

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/16487/103218/Dry_Wine_Yeast_-_ICVD254_8_g

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/16469/103218/Dry_Wine_Yeast_-_QA23_8_g

Please let me know any comments or input you may have. It'd be much appreciated. Cheers!

 

[fatbloke]

Well, as far as I can see, it looks fine. The only change I would make, is to use K1V-1116, rather than D47.

K1V has a much, much wider temperature tolerance and given your location, which does get warm, it would be easier to manage without having to mess around with cooling the ferment (D47 seems to produce best results with lower temps in it's range). I much prefer the results from the K1V after it's aged for a while as well.

Don't forget, the suggested levels of nutrients for any yeast, are the suggested amounts for grape wines. Honey musts are considerably lower in nutrient than grape ones. So if you follow hightests guide then that should be fine. After all, it's about not stressing the yeast to encourage it to produce off flavours etc etc.....

regards

fatbloke

 

[triarchy]

First off, if the D47 sticks to its rated alcohol max, you should end up a bit sweet. However, I have found its pretty easy to get it to exceed that. You may find this goes closer to dry in that case. One way to make sure you get the right sweetness is to reduce the amount of honey you ferment with and let it go dry. Then stabilize and backsweeten.

As for cherries in the secondary, Im not so sure about amounts but my intuition says you wouldnt need more than 14lbs for a 4 gallon batch. Regarding pits, the thing there is you dont want to break them if you do put them in the mead, they are a bit toxic in large amounts. The other thing to consider is that you should do something to break down the cherries, dont put them in whole. Which leads back to the problem of not breaking the pits, like if you blended them that could be trouble. I use a plastic "blade" in my food processor (its for bread) and that leaves the pits intact and breaks down the cherry. You might also consider freezing the cherries first, when you thaw them they will break down easier. *** After re-reading this, maybe I should say leave the pits in at your own risk. Id hate to advise you and have you get sick.

I think D47 should be OK at 64F. If you could take it down a little in temp, that would be better I think.

I wouldnt heat the fruit either. Get the cherries mashed up and add k-meta/campden tablet to the fruit and let it sit for 24 hours. That should nuke any wild yeast. Then add that to the secondary.

 

[wayneb]

Aside from the fact that I'm a proponent of fruit in primary (and as you know, that is a personal preference - adding it in secondary is OK, too, simply different), I like your general plan.

I agree with fatbloke - K1-V1116 will be a better yeast choice for your fermentation conditions, especially if they will vary as the temperatures warm. Yes, it is rated to a higher ethanol tolerance overall, but I suspect that with proper fermentation management any D47 batch you'd do would get up in the neighborhood of 16% ABV as well, as long as you provided it with enough fermentables, so there's some backsweetening in your future regardless.

Regardless of the yeast strain used, this recipe starts at an SG of around 1.095 and should ferment out completely dry and yield around 12.5% to 12.75% ABV in primary. (Just to clarify - your recipe calls for 4 US gallons of water to yield a total must volume of right around 5 gallons, correct? You didn't mean add water to get a net must volume of 4 gallons, did you?) That will be diluted somewhat once the cherries are added, since they will yield a juice fraction that is only about 1.010 in SG (tart cherries aren't very sweet). The exact amount of dilution will depend on the equivalent juice volume, but for 11 lbs of fruit I'd expect no more than about a quart to a quart and a half of juice, max, especially if you don't press the fruit.

With cherries some folks like leaving the pits in, while others remove them. The pits will provide a slightly nutty, slightly woody component that some people (myself included) like very much.

Finally, pectins are tough. If you do not add pectinase, and you use fruit that have been pasteurized, the set pectins from that fruit will leave a haze that can take decades to begin to clear - if it ever does at all. I encourage everyone using fruit to use pectic enzymes, even if the fruit is rated as low in pectins.

 

[YogiBearMead726]

Just a quick thought on the nutrients; I would hold off on the first addition of DAP until after the lag phase is over and fermentation starts. It'll help those little yeasties while they get acclimated to their new home.

Otherwise, sounds pretty good. You should consider becoming a Patron to gain access to the awesome cherry recipes found in the Patron's Section. I believe Oskaar will be adding another one in early June. It's totally worth it! *end of GotMead plug*

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Thanks for all of the input!

Yes, I meant 4 gallons of water added to have a batch somewhere close to 5 gallons total.

I'll switch to K1-V1116. I know it has a wide range, but do you guys have a range that you prefer for that yeast? Guess it's like with beer yeast, the warmer it is, the more esters? I think I'll likely still use the temp controller for primary so I can control what temp it's at.

As for fruit, a couple of things:

1. Schramm says to add pectic enzyme with the yeast. BUT, I'm assuming that means if you're using fruit in primary. What if you use the fruit in secondary, as I'll be doing? I don't have pectic enzyme on hand and would have to order it and it wouldn't arrive before I made the mead if I do order it.

2. If I go with sulfite to sanitize the fruit, will that work okay? I just tested the food processor and there's some plastic piece in there that worked on a test cherry to separate the pit without shredding it, so I may go that route, then remove the pits and puree the cherry without the pits. Assuming I do this, will the puree allow me to stir in the sulfite in a way so it gets enough contact with the entire puree to sanitize it? I have potassium metabisulfite on hand here and could use that method if it will work okay.

As for becoming a patron, I may do that in the future if I see that I'm using this site a lot. I *am* now. And I'm not against it. But I just gave the IRS a huge amount of money on April 15th and am still recovering, so it won't be right away if I do join up. It's a great site and I'm enjoying it thus far, so likely I'll join up in a couple of months.

 

[Chevette Girl]

Schramm says to add pectic enzyme with the yeast. BUT, I'm assuming that means if you're using fruit in primary. What if you use the fruit in secondary, as I'll be doing? I don't have pectic enzyme on hand and would have to order it and it wouldn't arrive before I made the mead if I do order it.

If I go with sulfite to sanitize the fruit, will that work okay? I just tested the food processor and there's some plastic piece in there that worked on a test cherry to separate the pit without shredding it, so I may go that route, then remove the pits and puree the cherry without the pits. Assuming I do this, will the puree allow me to stir in the sulfite in a way so it gets enough contact with the entire puree to sanitize it? I have potassium metabisulfite on hand here and could use that method if it will work okay.

Other sources I have read (sorry, I don't have references at the moment) suggest that puréed fruit will indeed be sufficient for both metabisulphite AND pectinase, I'd just suggest mixing it once or twice in the 24 hours you leave the sulphites and pectinase in to do their job. I don't know if there's any problems with adding both at once but the main book I always used suggested 24 hours with sulphites and then 24 hours with pectinase... If you get it timed right, you might not even need the sulphites, if the must is still going strong it should be OK to dump the fruit and the pectinase in...

When I made my sweet cherry wine a few years ago, I just washed them all well and mashed them with a potato masher in the fruit bag, leaving the pits in because there was no way I was going to pit 5 lbs of cherries without a cherry pitter... I've heard (I think it may have been Terry Garey's Joy of Home Winemaking) some people like to crack a few of the pits open and leave them in for the extra nutty flavour they impart, if they're at a comparable level of toxicity as apple seeds, there's not anywhere near a high enough concentration of anything to be dangerous in a wine or mead.

 

[fatbloke]

Well, apart from preferring to use an olive/cherry punch to remove the cherry pits, as I like to keep the fruit as complete as possible (its a PITA to remove fine pulp/fruit sludge later on), you idea should work ok. You can prep the fruit a day or two early I'd you want to as that allows the sulphite to dissipate and not affect the ferment/yeast in any way.

Some of the main points of using pectolase on just the fruit earlier, is that it not only helps in breaking down any Pectin but also helps with juice and colour extraction. And you often need double the amount on a finished ferment, as opposied to using it on the unfermented fruit. So its cheaper/more cost effective.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Other sources I have read (sorry, I don't have references at the moment) suggest that puréed fruit will indeed be sufficient for both metabisulphite AND pectinase, I'd just suggest mixing it once or twice in the 24 hours you leave the sulphites and pectinase in to do their job. I don't know if there's any problems with adding both at once but the main book I always used suggested 24 hours with sulphites and then 24 hours with pectinase... If you get it timed right, you might not even need the sulphites, if the must is still going strong it should be OK to dump the fruit and the pectinase in...

When I made my sweet cherry wine a few years ago, I just washed them all well and mashed them with a potato masher in the fruit bag, leaving the pits in because there was no way I was going to pit 5 lbs of cherries without a cherry pitter... I've heard (I think it may have been Terry Garey's Joy of Home Winemaking) some people like to crack a few of the pits open and leave them in for the extra nutty flavour they impart, if they're at a comparable level of toxicity as apple seeds, there's not anywhere near a high enough concentration of anything to be dangerous in a wine or mead.

Hmm. I was under the impression that you only need to use pectic enzyme if you heat the fruit, which sets the pectins. Do I need to use pectic enzyme even if I don't heat the fruit???

Well, apart from preferring to use an olive/cherry punch to remove the cherry pits, as I like to keep the fruit as complete as possible (its a PITA to remove fine pulp/fruit sludge later on), you idea should work ok. You can prep the fruit a day or two early I'd you want to as that allows the sulphite to dissipate and not affect the ferment/yeast in any way.

Some of the main points of using pectolase on just the fruit earlier, is that it not only helps in breaking down any Pectin but also helps with juice and colour extraction. And you often need double the amount on a finished ferment, as opposied to using it on the unfermented fruit. So its cheaper/more cost effective.

So, if I want also to leave the fruit mostly intact, I can use the attachment for removing the pits, perhaps. When I just tested it, it broke the cherry into maybe 4 pieces or so and separated that pit. Sound okay? I could use that and skip making a puree.

If it's only broken up like that, would it get surface contact with the sulfite? Maybe I oughta order the pectic enzyme and add that with the fruit, as you said, after pasteurizing it. What's your full technique?

 

[Chevette Girl]

Hmm. I was under the impression that you only need to use pectic enzyme if you heat the fruit, which sets the pectins. Do I need to use pectic enzyme even if I don't heat the fruit???

I'm in the same camp as Wayneb, I use it anyway even when the fruit isn't heated... the pectins are still there, holding the fruit together and the pectinase helps break that down so the fruit releases more juice. I think heating the fruit just makes the pectin more likely to cause a pectic haze by releasing it into the juice (Wikipedia says it's extracted from cell walls by heating), but I think I managed to get pectic haze once in a super-citrusy JAO variant with no heat.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the advice Chevette Girl.

Schramm says that pectin "sets" at 180 F and that the enzyme helps break it down to avoid haze.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Awesome! Bought the honey today for the mead. It was harvested on Friday. Tasted it before buying and it's just amazingly tasty. They don't do any filtering or anything, no real processing. Told me they just remove the honey and jar it, that's it. You can see debris in there (presumably little pieces of hive and bees). My wife and I both tasted it and said wow. Should make some nice mead.

The apiary is not far from here too, out in the countryside. Clean air and everything. We'll probably go visit them sometime. They'll have chestnut in a few weeks and I'll be giving that a go as well. Another producer should have Linden around the same time, so those may be my next two batches unless I do something else first. We'll see. I'll be buying rosemary honey in late June as well, so guess I'm going to have a supply of honey to use for mead.

 

[ken_schramm]

I just bottled a cherry mead. It is perfectly clear, and I did not use any pectinase. I don't think pectinase is necessary in cherry meads.

Your recipe will have a little residual sugar, but not much. You could up the honey by 2-3 pounds, or reduce the H2O by a couple of quarts. The fruit will make up for some of the lost volume.

If you want to leave the pits in, just bruise up the fruit well to break the skins. That will insure good extraction. I like cherry meads with and without the pits. Just a matter of what day ot is and what suits my fancy at any given moment.

Best of luck. Cherry season is soon upon us here. too.

Ken

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I just bottled a cherry mead. It is perfectly clear, and I did not use any pectinase. I don't think pectinase is necessary in cherry meads.

Your recipe will have a little residual sugar, but not much. You could up the honey by 2-3 pounds, or reduce the H2O by a couple of quarts. The fruit will make up for some of the lost volume.

If you want to leave the pits in, just bruise up the fruit well to break the skins. That will insure good extraction. I like cherry meads with and without the pits. Just a matter of what day ot is and what suits my fancy at any given moment.

Best of luck. Cherry season is soon upon us here. too.

Ken

Hello Ken. Thanks for the info!

Did you process your cherries with heat or sulfite for that melomel? I'm guessing heat since you mention not needing pectinase, but can you verify that?

And thanks for the awesome book. Bought and read it a couple of weeks ago and glad I did. A nice read and very helpful.

Cheers!

 

[ken_schramm]

No processing, and no sulfites at all. Healthy yeast culture and good nutrition.

I'm glad you liked the book. I hope it was worth the expense.

Yours,
Ken

 

[MattHollingsworth]

No processing, and no sulfites at all. Healthy yeast culture and good nutrition.

I'm glad you liked the book. I hope it was worth the expense.

Yours,
Ken

Great! Thanks for letting me know.

And yes, well worth the expense. Not an expensive book for the information it supplies. The section on honey was especially interesting for me.

 

[Oskaar]

I may have missed this in the thread but are you using the sour cherries (visnja) or sweet? It makes a difference in the recipe.

Also I didn't see if you listed other yeasts that you have access to. I know that Lallemand has a facility there in Croatia so I'm guessing you may have access to a few other yeasts. Some of the folks were mentioning K1V, but if you are using sour cherries I would recommend a different yeast based on my experience. I like acid (so does Ken, as I remember having an "acid-head" discussion with him a couple of Mazer Cups ago). I don't know if he's using Narbonne (71B) or Montpelier (K1) in his cherry meads now. So Ken, if you're still watching this thread gimmie a shout out.

I like maintaining that sour tartness from the cherries (Morello and Montmorency) and I like the profile that QA23, D47 and CY3079 all give my cherry melomels and cherry cysers.

I know, nothing like coming in late in the game! LOL

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I may have missed this in the thread but are you using the sour cherries (visnja) or sweet? It makes a difference in the recipe.

Also I didn't see if you listed other yeasts that you have access to. I know that Lallemand has a facility there in Croatia so I'm guessing you may have access to a few other yeasts. Some of the folks were mentioning K1V, but if you are using sour cherries I would recommend a different yeast based on my experience. I like acid (so does Ken, as I remember having an "acid-head" discussion with him a couple of Mazer Cups ago). I don't know if he's using Narbonne (71B) or Montpelier (K1) in his cherry meads now. So Ken, if you're still watching this thread gimmie a shout out.

I like maintaining that sour tartness from the cherries (Morello and Montmorency) and I like the profile that QA23, D47 and CY3079 all give my cherry melomels and cherry cysers.

I know, nothing like coming in late in the game! LOL

Cheers,

Oskaar

I haven't used any yeasts here, but there aren't ANY available now that I've seen (meaning, available to buy here in Croatia). Typically, all of the winemaking stuff shows up in the fall, when everyone's making wine. That said, yes, I have a bunch of other yeasts that I ordered from More Wine. I have D 47, 71B, K1116, QA23 and ICVD254 (going from memory on some numbers, but think you get the idea).

Haven't seen anyone else mention QA23. So, you like it then?

I'm using sour cherries. I have sweet cherries in my backyard, but opted for sour instead, from my father-in-law in Kutina. I'll have around 5 kg at my disposal.

I think basically folks were recommending K1116 based on temperature. But I have a temp controller and chest freezer to ferment in. I can control primary (then I'll need the space for another mead or beer), then secondary should be in the low 70s.

Thoughts?

 

[AToE]

Sour is in my opinion the better way to go, sweet cherries can end up tasting medicinal after fermentation (literally like that fake cherry flavoured caugh syrup), but this doesn't seem to come up with the sour ones (and if you're finishing sweet, the tartness will balance it so it's not too sweet tasting).

QA23 I've only used once (and not in a fruit mead) but it does seem to bring some more acidity (or the impression of it anyways) and some tropical fruit aromas to the table - seems like a great choice to me. 71B is a great yeast for people starting out, as it's very tolerant of lower nutrients and warmer temps, and does produce a nice "bright" mead. Just going from memory though, 71B is around 14% ABV tolerance (when fermenting warm it'll frequently bust that though and hit 15 or 16%) which is lower than K1V and QA23, I believe both of those are 16% yeasts (maybe double check that though). As such if you used 71B I'd lower the honey amount so it doesn't end up too sweet (you can always add more honey at the end, but once it finishes too sweet it's trickier to fix).

 

[PitBull]

Sour is in my opinion the better way to go, sweet cherries can end up tasting medicinal after fermentation (literally like that fake cherry flavoured caugh syrup), but this doesn't seem to come up with the sour ones (and if you're finishing sweet, the tartness will balance it so it's not too sweet tasting).

Unfortunately, sour cherries can sometimes leave a medicine taste too. I used 100% Montmorency cherry juice in the primary and added Montmorency cherries to the secondary. I was hoping to finish a bit sweet, but the little RC212 yeasties took the alcohol content to over 16%, which is likely part of (or most of) the problem. It literally tastes like cherry cough syrup. It was fermented at around 60 degrees F and is 5 months old right now.

I tried to backsweeten a few samples, and those tasted like sweetened cherry cough syrup. (Just a spoon full of honey helps the medicine to down??) The mead has had two rackings and is very clear. I'm going to backsweeten and bottle soon. Hopefully the hotness and medicinal taste will age out in a couple of years.