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You may want to check with Laney Honey or our friends at The Bee Folks...they may be willing to do that.
Just a thought!!
Just a thought!!
A
andrewschwab
Guest
Guest
Those would be honey broker's. The broker's blend and buy from whoever whenever. Which is fine, just doesn't seem good for this per say...
You want to try and find beekeeper's with same location year after year. Even if they come and go during the year would be fine. Just so the honey comes from that same location.
You want to try and find beekeeper's with same location year after year. Even if they come and go during the year would be fine. Just so the honey comes from that same location.
Winter Park Honey produces Florida Blackberry honey. I am trying to confirm that they get it from the same location each year. This might be good for a comparison seeings how it's from the opposite end of the country. Anyone with a good producer somewhere in the middle please chime in and we can try to expand to a 3 way comparison.
We still don't have a volunteer to make (and store, and coordinate shipping) for 2 ten-gallon batches.
We still don't have a volunteer to make (and store, and coordinate shipping) for 2 ten-gallon batches.
That would be marvelous! If we can get two 10-gallon batches done each year for two years, we'd have a good little test.
2 years is more reasonable.........or what if we did two 5 gallon per year for the full 4 years? I think I can find a quite corner somewhere to do this. My down stairs runs about 68 degrees +/-2.
The reason I think we need 10 gallon batches for the first is so that there will be enough for multi-year comparison. In the first year, if you get 10 tasters (and I'd like to have more), you'll need two bottles per taster or about 1 case of 12-oz bottles for each batch. In the second year, or third year, you'll need a similar amount. A five gallon batch in year two or three will probably work fine, but for the first year, you need to make enough to carry the tasting for a few years.
You know, it's funny when you start to outline a test how much thinking has to go in at the beginning. It really makes me appreciate some of those closure trials such as the ones in Australia. They had to do an awful lot of preparatory work.
You know, it's funny when you start to outline a test how much thinking has to go in at the beginning. It really makes me appreciate some of those closure trials such as the ones in Australia. They had to do an awful lot of preparatory work.
I can't say I'd volunteer to taste, as I don't know what I'm tasting, but I'll make it so others can taste.
To true. Many "man-hours" have been wasted on tests that were performed with not enough prep work. Better to think it through now, than to come up short 5 gallons from year one.
As far as I’m concerned, if you want to do the 4 years trail, we can. It certainly would be the best and most interesting "trial".
Maybe this could work:
Year 1: brew 20 gal (divided into four 5 gallon carboys)
Year 2: brew 15 gal (divided into three 5 gallon carboys)
One 5 gal from year one bottled for tasting
Year 3: brew 10 gal (divided into two 5 gallon carboy)
One 5 gal from year one and one 5 gal from year two bottled
For tasting
Year 4: brew 5 gal
One 5 gal from years one, two and three bottled For tasting.
Year 5: carboys from years one through four bottled and divided up.
The "brewers" would need to dedicate 4 carboys in year one, 6 carboys in years two and three and 4 carboys through year four. The most we'd have to carry forward would be 6 carboys.
A
andrewschwab
Guest
Guest
Just a thought, if bulk age 1 year then bottle.
Would bottleing in 375ml work? I really don't know just a thought.
Would bottleing in 375ml work? I really don't know just a thought.
Well, I think I found a source for Blackberry Honey. They're in New Hampshire. They pretty much stay in New England and go to the same areas annually. They can't guarantee that the honey will be from the exact same "orchard" each year, but it will be from the same area.... eg: New England.
It could work..........
Also, There's a place in NJ that has Blueberry Honey. They do go back to the same fields each. Blue berry could be another alternative.
Tough task to standardize...
I believe there is no way "terroir" could not be affecting honey flavor and aroma, to use the double negative. On the other hand (and not that I have thought about this much), here are some caveats...
A different approach might be to freeze the honeys in airtight containers until all had been accumulated, and the make all the meads the same year. In any case, you will be dealing with the impact of storage/aging time on either the honey or on the mead when evaluating the finished meads.
Another approach might be to gather honeys from the same floral source from the same relative micro-climate. I'm pretty sure you could find three or four reliable sources of sweet clover honey from different regions of Nebraska, for example. But then...
The last issue is that unless you are the beekeeper in all cases, you can never really control (from source to source) for hive management practice, which has a huge impact on the flavor of the honey. One beekeeper may be re-using aging comb, another using foundation only, and yet another doing basically top-bar management. Even if the hives are side-by-side, the honey from each will be distinctly different. The question(s) this raises is/are, which and how much of the differences you can taste are being contributed as the result of terroir, and which/how much from hive management practice? Lots to standardize to end up with a true control group. It could be done, but to be done right will not be cheap, by any means.
Ken
I believe there is no way "terroir" could not be affecting honey flavor and aroma, to use the double negative. On the other hand (and not that I have thought about this much
), here are some caveats...A different approach might be to freeze the honeys in airtight containers until all had been accumulated, and the make all the meads the same year. In any case, you will be dealing with the impact of storage/aging time on either the honey or on the mead when evaluating the finished meads.
Another approach might be to gather honeys from the same floral source from the same relative micro-climate. I'm pretty sure you could find three or four reliable sources of sweet clover honey from different regions of Nebraska, for example. But then...
The last issue is that unless you are the beekeeper in all cases, you can never really control (from source to source) for hive management practice, which has a huge impact on the flavor of the honey. One beekeeper may be re-using aging comb, another using foundation only, and yet another doing basically top-bar management. Even if the hives are side-by-side, the honey from each will be distinctly different. The question(s) this raises is/are, which and how much of the differences you can taste are being contributed as the result of terroir, and which/how much from hive management practice? Lots to standardize to end up with a true control group. It could be done, but to be done right will not be cheap, by any means.
Ken
I don't think anyone doubts that honey from different regions will have different flavor - the obvious example being wildflower. Here in Florida wildflower is going to be some mix of citrus, Brazilian pepper bush, palmetto and such, and Canadian wildflower is going to probably be heavy on clover. They'll certainly be different, and they will vary from year to year.
I guess we need to define "Terroir" a bit.
In my interpretation (and I'll be first to admit a humble one) of Terroir what we are looking for is not the difference from place to place, but instead that consistency which could define a place from year to year. In winemaking, each vintage may be different depending on temperature, number of sunny days, rainfall amount, how the canopy is managed, how much fertilizer is used, how ripe when picked, and how selective the sorting among other factors. With all these variables, plus all the cellar operations, and the blending of varieties, you'd think that a wine must be radically different each year.
That's not necessarily the case. With the direction of the winemaker, adjustments are made within the framework of these variables to try to produce some consistency in flavor and style. In the end, to use a gross example (and an expensive one), in the Bordeaux region, a Château Haut-Brion wine tastes different from a Château Mouton-Rothschild, and if you compare several vintages, that distinction remains. There is something either because of or in spite of all those variables that will give a Château Haut-Brion (or any great wine) some distinctive character. In the case of Haut-Brion, even my limited palate can pick it up.
So my question really isn't "will blackberry mead taste different between Florida and Oregon honeys?" I expect the answer to that is yes, though I could be wrong and would like to see it tested as the first part of this. My question is, "do each of these regions have something that makes their blackberry honey (and the mead) distinctive that carries through from year to year?"
If the differences due to weather and blooming of other plants, and beekeeping technique and such, causes each year's honey crop to be so different , then comparing Florida and Oregon blackberry mead over 2 years may be like comparing 4 entirely different meads. Perhaps there won't be something that you can smell and taste that say, "this one's from Oregon." If there is, then that is honey (or mead as it were) terroir.
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Ken's suggestion to compare honey from within a region to push this idea a step further is an excellent one. I still want to try to demonstrate a distinction between regions using the same variety of honey if it can be done. If it is possible to do so, then it would be very interesting to try to compare varietal honey within a region to see down to what level you can identify the source of a honey in a mead.
Unless there were complete control over the hives, it would be next to impossible to control "quality" within a geographical region. I've talked to several apiaries, who are relatively small operation and they keep their hives within an area...the New Hampshire seller’s stays within NH and MA. However, like Ken said, the differences in the hives themselves will effect the honey.... the processing...errrrrrrr. How do you maintain a regional control? I see bee hives in my future........
