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Licensing to Start a Meadery/Brewery?

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bmonko

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Feb 17, 2010
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With mead classified as a wine, and federal licensing restrictions prohibiting wineries from keeping malt on the premises, how do you get a license to start a combined meadery and brewery?

Before someone answers "you can't," I know of 1) a meadery that makes beer (Rabbit's Foot), and 2) a brewery in Fort Collins, CO that makes mead.

How does one get licensed to make and sell both mead and beer?

Cheers,
Brian
 
I was about to say that the beers from Rabbit's Foot are all marketed under the Red Branch label, but apparently their Biere de Miele is labeled Rabbit's Foot. So that shoots my theory about having a separate entity for the beer side.

Shoot the Rabbit's Foot guys an email and see what they say.
 
With the "no malt" rule, do you have to delineate some floorspace as "winery" and make sure there is no malt there when someone comes to inspect?
 
The guidelines I saw (which I've been unable to find again) said "no malt on the premises."
Rabbit's Foot Meadery and CooperSmith's Brewpub (Fort Collins) both have mead taps and beer taps right next to each other, and serve them in the same space.
While I obviously can't know this for a fact, I STRONGLY doubt that they have two licenses, pay double bonding and state fees, etc.
The next time I'm in Rabbit's Foot I'll ask the guy, but it's a few hours away so that may not be any time soon.
Anyone have any other ideas as to how it's possible to have a brewpub that makes and sells both beer and mead?
Ah, the joys of bureaucracy, over-regulation, and sin taxes.

Cheers,
Brian
 
One workaround might be to use malt extract?

Authorities can be pretty forgiving as long as your means don't directly condradict the law, and your ends don't contradict the intention. The intention in this case would be to prevent wineries from making beer and breweries from making wine. I'm sure they wouldn't object to a hole that would allow a meadery to make every kind of honey-related product it wants to, as long as there's no plan to make pure beers in addition to that.
 
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Smarrikåka said:
One workaround might be to use malt extract?

Authorities can be pretty forgiving as long as your means don't directly condradict the law, and your ends don't contradict the intention. The intention in this case would be to prevent wineries from making beer and breweries from making wine. I'm sure they wouldn't object to a hole that would allow a meadery to make every kind of honey-related product it wants to, as long as there's no plan to make pure beers in addition to that.
Click to expand...

Don't be too sure about that. No malt or malt products. PERIOD. That definitely includes malt extract.
Can not use maple syrup in the production of mead/wine either. Found that out the hard way.
 
I wasn't joking. You'll need both a brewing and wine making license. Both the bonded facilities must be completely seperated and secured. You can not even bring malt through the winery portion of the facility unless you get a variance on the bond. If you plan on using the same equipment for both beer and wine, you'll need an alternating premisi license and must notify the TTB in advance before changing from beer to wine or vice-versa.

I'm not making this stuff up. I've been down this path before.
 
Brad Dahlhofer said:
Don't be too sure about that. No malt or malt products. PERIOD. That definitely includes malt extract.
Can not use maple syrup in the production of mead/wine either. Found that out the hard way.
Click to expand...

Well, then that wasn't a hole. I just mean if you do find one, they probably wouldn't give the same amount of effort to thwart it, as if you were trying to make beer in a winery.
 
Brad Dahlhofer said:
I wasn't joking. You'll need both a brewing and wine making license. Both the bonded facilities must be completely seperated and secured. You can not even bring malt through the winery portion of the facility unless you get a variance on the bond. If you plan on using the same equipment for both beer and wine, you'll need an alternating premisi license and must notify the TTB in advance before changing from beer to wine or vice-versa.

I'm not making this stuff up. I've been down this path before.
Click to expand...

Would I sound too bitchy if I said that's utterly ridiculous?

I know, I know...them revenuers gotta get their revenue somewheres, don't they?
 
Although my direct experience is limited

In my current application, I know that it is extremely important that the winery be designated into certain area's (bonded vs tax-paid wine) for one. I wouldn't imagine the TTB would allow a brewery/winery without clear designation.

The most likely candidate is an alternating proprietorship. I could even see a alternating setup where someone can make wine, bulk age for 6 mo, then bottle and pay the tax. Then let it sit in a 'alternative storage location' for another year, while you make quicker-turn-around beer products in that same premises as the winery for a year. Then when the wine is ready for sale after aging in the bottle, you can begin selling the wine and the beer at the same time.


Either way, I would stick to one or the other until you know how to score a 9 out of 10 on the TTB gymnastics sliding scale of compliance. (my term, not official TTB!)
 
Brad Dahlhofer said:
Don't be too sure about that. No malt or malt products. PERIOD. That definitely includes malt extract.
Can not use maple syrup in the production of mead/wine either. Found that out the hard way.
Click to expand...

Then how did Dogfish Head and Sierra Nevada pull off their collaboration ale? Maple syrup was the Dogfish addition.
 
Brad Dahlhofer said:
I wasn't joking. You'll need both a brewing and wine making license. Both the bonded facilities must be completely seperated and secured. You can not even bring malt through the winery portion of the facility unless you get a variance on the bond. If you plan on using the same equipment for both beer and wine, you'll need an alternating premisi license and must notify the TTB in advance before changing from beer to wine or vice-versa.

I'm not making this stuff up. I've been down this path before.
Click to expand...

so no commercial braggot then ?????
 
slimslam said:
so no commercial braggot then ?????
Click to expand...

Not from a meadery, no. But a brewery can produce as much braggot as they like. Makes sense, no? :)

The TTB doesn't know about, nor care about styles in the sense that you or I think of them. They've drawn a very clear line in the sand that designates anything with grain as a beer, and anything without as a wine. Crossovers can be done more easily with beer than wine because the beer side has probably fought harder for them. How many wineries do you think have fought to have grain added to their pinot noir. Not many, is my guess.

COMMERCIAL MEAD MAKERS, WE NEED TO UNITE AND FIGHT FOR OUR INDUSTRY!!
 
Brad Dahlhofer said:
Not from a meadery, no. But a brewery can produce as much braggot as they like. Makes sense, no? :)

The TTB doesn't know about, nor care about styles in the sense that you or I think of them. They've drawn a very clear line in the sand that designates anything with grain as a beer, and anything without as a wine. Crossovers can be done more easily with beer than wine because the beer side has probably fought harder for them. How many wineries do you think have fought to have grain added to their pinot noir. Not many, is my guess.

COMMERCIAL MEAD MAKERS, WE NEED TO UNITE AND FIGHT FOR OUR INDUSTRY!!
Click to expand...

well its all political bull anyway .... im sure the beer lobbiests years ago fought and payed to get this in same with maple syrup... i can not see any reason why these ingredients need to be regulated like this. just more goverment control in our lives i think.... did the ttb give any valid reson why grain and maple syrup cant go in wine ??? will it change the orbit of the moon or cause the green horned toad to stop reproducing ???
 
My guess is that it might be limitations that wineries wished imposed on themselves, to ensure nobody was selling "fake wine" composed of the appropiate mix of simple sugars and taste extracts. Syrups and grains probably got thrown into the mix, just to be on the safe side.

In the interst of everything other than the protective beer and wine idustries, it'd probably be good if they allowed you to have something called a "fermentary" (or similar), that was allowed to ferment anything you want as long as it wasn't marketed as beer or wine.
 
why do we need a definition ???? if a winery and or brewery wanted to ferment sugar and water let em do it .... it will taste like crap and go out of buisness. as long as the product being made is not goign to kill you after a sip or 2 then who cares. if they want to define a beverage with grain is beer and all other are wine fine no problem make me get 2 permits and let me combine the 2... not have to call the ttb and say hey im now useing my equipment to brew beer. i understand regulation with wine and beer as far as your not sellign to underage and such. sorry if thsi seems liek a rant i just know how goverment workers are and they could really give to shits about us for the most part they have no customer base or are at risk to go out of buisness . we have to go throught them and they know this.. ok im dont for now the waether is nice and im goign to start planting my grape vines.... good luck brad i hope you get somewhere wiht them casue ithink that is nuts
 
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