Melomel? Or Not?

[jab]

Well, I understand what you are trying to say but how practical is it to take such a hardline with things such as language? Language is constantly evolving. You single handedly relegate yourself to living 66 years in the past. Because of that you (if you were truly as hardline as you say) would not be able to communicate today. The language and meanings of words have evolved. Not only that but by using such old definitions you loose most of the language in use today. Nothing about computers, nuclear energy, etc. Even if those words are in there, those, and the other words in there still in use today (probably quite a few) have evolved as well and taken on new meanings. Some are no longer in the vernacular.

I agree that a definition should be made. That I believe is one of the aims of the IMA (International Mead Association) and you can rest assured that as soon as something moves there it will be sung from the highest mountains.

 

[Dmntd]

Hey Jab,

I'm not really all that hard headed. I do feel not having set definitions allows for obfuscation, and that should be eschewed.

Anthony

 

[Oskaar]

Vodka and grape juice = not wine since the grape juice is not fermented, however if the grape juice were fermented then it would be a fortified wine.

Flavored show mead wouldn't be show mead since there was flavoring of some kind added, it would be a traditional mead (like when you add cherries, raisins, currants as nutrient like I do sometimes) or a "X" flavored traditional mead.

Mulled mead is mulled mead, I don't think it would be metheglyn. Mulling is a process that alters a mead, wine or beer. However, mulling spices in a primary or secondary would put you in the metheglin category.

Now, from my stand point, mead is mead. I don't really care about all of the fancy category names yadda yadda yadda. To me a debate over appellations is flatly uninteresting, and takes away from my concentration on making mead. I salute everyone however, who has either the patience or empiricism to spend their time researching this stuff and coming up with names for it.

My priorities in life, make mead, drink mead, chase women, drink mead with women not necessarily in that order. There are additional sub-categories thereof, but, I never figured out what I should call them. LOL

Cheers and good discussion,

Oskaar

 

[lostnbronx]

I think that it's at this level, where we all are here -- that is to say, in a public forum dedicated to mead issues -- that these terms will most often be used and required for accurate communication among fellow enthusiasts. Personally, I think this is vitally important for the evolution of mead as both a hobby and (most especially) an industry. It seems clear to me that we would all benefit greatly over the long run by having a detailed and quite particular nomenclature in place.

However, the danger, as I see it, is that this sort of thing can be divisive when no one "of authority" is involved in the conversation. Dmntd has his view; Pewter has his; Oskaar has his own; Jab has his; I have mine; etc.; etc. And all we can really do right now is put forth our individual opinions, which don't amount to much more than...our individual opinions. We're entitled to them, by all means, and we're very fortunate to have a place like this where we can express them in a non-confrontational, even supportive way; but until we recognize someone, or a group of someones, who has/have the knowledge, experience, and position to streamline and make a rapidly growing list of names and mead types concrete and "official", we're only talking at each other, instead of to each other on this topic.

I've heard a few times, and from different people, that the IMA is looking at this subject. Does anyone know who in particular has been tasked with this job, and if they are open to outside views/opinions?

-David

 

[jab]

Hey David, I don't think any one committee is tasked with this. I think it will probably be an effort by a few committees. My guess is that when the IMA get around to defining their own set of categorization for competitions that they will have to define the 'what' that constitutes a category. So in the case of a melomel, they will have to determine what melomel means in order to decide what should be allowed in that category. The same for other categories.

I believe the home mead maker committee will have a say in some of that as well as the industry professionals too. The IMA and the mead drinking public has a vested interest in getting it right. Right so competitions are fair, right so people in a forum such as this are on the same sheet of paper, right so that commercial meaderies have guidance in labeling their product.

I am not sure when these discussions/decisions will take place. If I were to guess, not until after Mead Fest 2006 (Feb) and prior to the entry forms going out for the 2007 competition.

 

[Oskaar]

I'm fairly certain that this falls under the auspices of the research committee, and that there is movement on this subject.

Honestly, I can't say for certain but it's the cart before the horse in my eyes. Although I believe in wheelbarrows, I don't think that taxonomy is a gatekeeper in the mead promotion process. If I say I make mead to most people they don't know what it is so I explain it to them. If I tell them "here have some melomel" and then the next week I say "here try some hippocras" and then the following week it's "here, try some pyment" they still don't really grasp the idea of mead.

I'm a nuts and bolts guy, get everyone on board with mead, then educate the masses on the different types of mead. Same with wine. I had a girlfriend who had two words for wine: wine and yummy. If it didn't meet those criteria, it didn't matter what the name was. There are plenty of other consumers that are the same way.

For us mead makers it's a different story, we want to be able to fling fancy terms that accurately describe what it is we're making. I personally am not interested in devising those terms, but I'm personally happy to use them when everyone is on board with them. Maybe it's because I go to so many wine tastings and see people who know absolutely nothing about wine hurling varietal names and tasting terms around like they actually know what they mean . . . when it is perfectly obvious that they don't have a clue.

I'd hate to see mead collect a crowd of similar zombies.

So, to me, compiling a carved in stone mead lexicon before "mead" is a household term seems a bit premature. We have plenty of work ahead of us just getting mead to be a household word. The rest will follow naturally. For competitions and such we definately need categories because it helps to know what the standard you're evaluating should be, no argument there. But, I don't think that we're detracting anything from our craft by not having a definitave list of names and categories yet.

JMNSHO,

Oskaar

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Vodka and grape juice = not wine since the grape juice is not fermented, however if the grape juice were fermented then it would be a fortified wine.

I think my whole point in this discussion finds basis in the same logic/philosophy behind Oskaar's statement as he applies it to wine.

It's not wine if the grape juice (or grapes) are not fermented...

So in my book it's not melomel unless the fruit/fruit juice is fermented...

 

[Oskaar]

I agree in part on that Pewter. If the juice is not fermented or aged in the mead before oaking, tannin adjustments, acid adjustment, stabilization and bottling, then it's a flavored mead because the juice has not been integrated as a part of the overall product, rather it was added at the end to modify the flavor.

But, when I add fruit or juice to the secondary I usually get a secondary ferment going so I consider that melomel by widely accepted definitions.

Cheeers,

Oskaar

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Oskaar,

I think we are in agreement. Let me try to capture it specifically...

A "melomel" would be a mead where the fruit or fruit juice has been involved in a fermentation in the mead.

A "flavored mead" would be a mead that has had juice, flavoring, or even soaked on fruit without a fermentation occuring.

Now for the sticky part...

That would make the wine flavored mead, a flavored mead not a melomel, right?

 

[Oskaar]

Yes, in my opinion when a completed mead is mixed with a completed wine (fruit wine, etc.) it makes it a wine-flavored mead, or a mead-wine blend but not a melomel or pyment depending on the fruit used.

But, if juice is added post fermentation but BEFORE stabilization and is allowed to age with the mead before stabilizing and bottling then I would feel it is a melomel because there is still a chemical alteration as the juice ages and integrates with the mead, and oak, etc.

None of the mead judging guidlines that I have read (AMA, Mazer Cup, BJCP) state specifically that the fruit has to undergo fermentation, and I agree with that. However, if as mentioned above, a completed mead is blended with a completed wine, then I don't consider that a melomel or a pyment.

Hope that helps,

Oskaar

 

[JamesP]

But, if juice is added post fermentation but BEFORE stabilization and is allowed to age with the mead before stabilizing and bottling then I would feel it is a melomel because there is still a chemical alteration as the juice ages and integrates with the mead, and oak, etc.

IMHO,
I draw the line of distinction between "part of the mead" vs "mixed with the mead" as whether the added juice fermented with the mead.

So added after fermentation (but before stabilization) would be a mixture by my thinking. If the stabilization didn't work, and the added juice fermented a bit, then it's no longer a mixture (but then is part of the secondary or tertiary fermentation).

 

[Oskaar]

I honestly trend in that direction too, but, with the number of commercial meaderies that add fruit juice to their mead at the end of the process I doubt that the IMA (which is comprised mostly of commercial meaderies) will change that definition.

This thread is a good example of why I generally do not participate in nomenclature/taxonomy/appellation efforts. Eveyone has a good opinion and valid reasons for naming things a certain way. I have enough debates in my life as it is, so I don't see the need to add another. I'm just happy calling it melomel, cyser or whatever regardless of whatever "the official" name should be. Mostly I call my stuff mead, then when people say "Wow, this tastes like cherries" I can explain what a melomel, or meth, or cyser is.

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[JamesP]

I doubt I could tell the difference between juice added to secondary vs juice added after secondary and BEFORE aging (you on the other hand, probably can 8) )

It would be hard to prove when it was added - so just comes down to the word of the mazer. But it still helps to draw the line in the sand somewhere.

 

[Michael_Ng]

Okay, so after watching the discussions on this topic explode, this is what I thinking seems to be the general consensus.

First of all, all variations should still be considered "Mead." (As long as it’s got fermented honey in the mix somewhere, it’s Mead. No Bunratty clones here.) The general consumer will not have a clue or care if it’s a Melomel or Mixed Mead of some sort as long as it tastes good. The many sub-classes are more for internal to the industry discussions to help describe the Mead and allow for similar products to be compared at judged competitions.

I’ll defer to the research committee of the International Mead Association for a formal decision on where the "line in the sand" lies and how to ensure adherence to the standard in judged competitions.

In the meantime, based on what everyone’s said so far, this is how I will categorize the various Fruit/Mead Combos on my website. (I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but this is how *I* am going to do it in the absence of formal IMA guidelines.)

Fruit/Juice Added to Primary - Melomel

Fruit/Juice Added to Secondary, Tertiary, etc... - Melomel

Fruit/Juice Added after stabilization but prior to bottling - Flavored Mead, Mixed Mead, Mead Mixer, Blended Mead, Specialty Mead, Mead Cordial, etc...
(Maybe "Fruit infused Mead" if the Mead has been added specifically to fruit instead of fruit juice.)

Finished/stabilized Fruit Wine Added to a Finished/stabilized Mead - Flavored Mead, Mixed Mead, Mead Mixer, Blended Mead, Specialty Mead, Blended Wine, etc...

Fruit Extracts or any artificial fruit flavoring added at any stage – Flavored Mead

As far as I’m concerned, if the fruit or juice wasn’t added with the intention of having it ferment to some degree with the honey, it’s still Mead, but it’s not a Melomel.

Michael Ng
Owner - Knowne World Meads
http://www.KWMeads.com

 

[Oskaar]

I think that's a sound approach. You can please some of the people some of the time, and all of the people some of the time, . . . and that works for me! LOL

Cheers,

Oskaar

 

[Dan McFeeley]

I’m in the process of reviewing some new mead for KWMeads.com and I noticed that a few of them are actually meads that have been blended with fruit wine. (Presumably after fermentation has completed, similar to Chaucer’s Raspberry Mead.)

With this in mind, would they still be considered a Melomel? Or does the fruit need to ferment with the honey to qualify? Where do we draw the line?

Sorry, coming in late on this thread, didn't realize it had taken off the way it had.

Some of the confusion might be coming from the problem of conflating different categories. In general production of wine, or other fermented beverages, the definitions are fairly loose. Example, Oskaar's example of varietal wine -- it's ok to blend with other varietals, so long as the varietal grape on the label is dominant. No one objects to buying a Cab wine which is really a blend of Cab and other wine grapes.

In competition, it's a different story. The entry has to answer to the specified bench marks, else it isn't what it claims.

I think that's a little of what is happening in this discussion. What is a melomel? Or, what is a melomel as defined for general public consumption, and what is a melomel as defined by judging categories?

Bunratty Meade wouldn't be allowed to be entered as a mead in a mead competition, but there's really nothing wrong with it being marketed as a "mead," so long as the label specifies what it really is.

Historically, of course, it's not a mead, but that's yet another quibble from a different corner.

Same thing with melomels made by blending mead and fruit wine. In terms of general production categories, yeah, it's a melomel. Why not -- they're both fermented products. A lot of commercially produced country wines are made by fermenting to dryness, then backsweetening with juice. Is it still a wine? Sure it is.

Sometimes I think fuzzy logic plays a better role in debates like this than trying to find out where the line in the sand is.

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Same thing with melomels made by blending mead and fruit wine. In terms of general production categories, yeah, it's a melomel. Why not -- they're both fermented products. A lot of commercially produced country wines are made by fermenting to dryness, then backsweetening with juice. Is it still a wine? Sure it is.

Dan,

While I agree with your post in general, I have a little trouble with the analogy that I quote.

Is it a wine? Of course.

It seems to me that a better analogy to the melomel discussion might be the following...

I throw 10 lbs of sugar into 5 gallons of water with a wine yeast and allow it to ferment to completion, filter or sulfite/sulfate it, then add grape juice. What have I got? If I used the same yeast and grape juice as is in a Cabernet, do I have a Cabernet? Why or why not?

Or another perspective...

I ferment a standard wine to completion, sulfite/sulfate, and then add raspberry juice. Is is "raspberry wine" or "raspberry flavored wine"?

I guess I have another question to add since I don't know anything about the specific product that raised this discussion. Is the original raspberry wine being used in the "melomel" a fermented raspberry juice or a fermented grape juice with raspberry flavoring added?

It just dawns on me that if I add a grape based wine to a show mead, aren't I ending up with a pymeth? And if I add raspberry juice to either the wine, the mead, or the final product without fermenting it, aren't I just ending up with a raspberry flavored pymeth?

I love discussions like this... makes me think...

Pewter

 

[Norskersword]

Why does it matter to you so much? You are going to give yourself gray hairs! ;D

 

[Oskaar]

Pewter,

Step away from the coffee and put your hands in the air.

Oskaar

 

[Pewter_of_Deodar]

Hey guys,

This is just a discussion and I am just expressing some opinions and trying to get people to think. In general, if you can get people to analyze the philosophy behind why they feel one way or the other about a simpler analogy, then get them to apply that same philosophy to a more complex situation, people looking back on the decisions in future years will understand why we decided what we did.

My opinions are my opinions and carry little or no weight anywhere. I'm not sure I understand why people get uptight when I express them. Hopefully the questions I asked have made you think. Anyway, back to the discussion...

If you buy a raspberry wine, what are you expecting you are getting?

If you buy a raspberry flavored wine, what are you expecting you are getting?

What about a pymeth? A raspberry flavored pymeth? A raspberry melomel?

I can come up with specific expectations for me and definitions that separate the categories. I am interested in hearing what others have to say...

Peace,
Pewter