This is sort of like my experience. Not saying that God visited me, but my personal experience was so powerful that I can never doubt His existence again.
I just had to come to the point where my mind was ready and able to accept Him.
Origins of life
- Thread starter Medsen Fey
- Start date
-
Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
-
We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
This is sort of like my experience. Not saying that God visited me, but my personal experience was so powerful that I can never doubt His existence again.
I just had to come to the point where my mind was ready and able to accept Him.
I think the issue most non-exclusivist-christians have is that there are so many people now (and even that is tiny compared to the early days) who have no chance to be Christian. Or, the even bigger problem as I see it, is even if they do have a chance, why would they convert? If I'm born to Islam, and a Christian shows up to convert me, why would I? Or any other religion?
Which is why I don't believe that exclusivism really works with Christianity and the concept of an all-just God.
I'll have to see if I can find the essay I wrote on the subject a couple years ago, it's pretty amateur, but I researched it pretty deeply on both sides of the debate.
Me too, but then, that might be knowledge, not faith...
I am a little envious of folks like my brother and Loadnabox who have had experiences that have left them with a certainty about it all. But who can say? We know not the workings of such things. Maybe it comes to the people who really need it. You know, the Footsteps in the Sand story.
I've always wondered what would happen if I had one of those experiences, I guess it would really depend on the experience. Because most of what I could imagine happening I could explain in simpler ways, so I imagine it would take one doozy of a miracle/experience to convince me otherwise.
I'll find out if it happens I guess, until then I go on the best information and gut feel I have available I suppose...
I'll find out if it happens I guess, until then I go on the best information and gut feel I have available I suppose...
It leaves you questioning your sanity for a while
Then when you decide you didn't imagine it all and you really are sane, you...
really begin to examine things with a fresh look
Let me just say that I would wish that everyone could enjoy the peace of knowing that we are not alone without having to endure some of the "experiences" that create certainty. Some of those experiences are painful beyond description.
Sorry, I missed this the first time through due to responding to other posts.
No, I believe that the priesthood has been passed to all of us that believe. Remember that the curtain of the temple, that barred people from entering into the holy of holies (God's presence) was torn in two on the day of the cruxifixion. I take that to mean that we can all now freely enter into God's presence without having to have a priest somehow help or do it for us...
All valid concerns.
First, I believe that the current world is much more evangelized than it was back in Jesus' time. But I am not sure that is the issue. My own belief is that when a man truly seeks God, that God will lay feelings on his heart to guide him the right way. Abraham believed and that belief was counted as righteousness. Did Abraham know about Christ? No. I won't pretend to understand the complexities but Abraham found eternity in the absence of missionaries.
So what about other religions? How should we consider them? My own POV is that it saddens me that others may be on the wrong path. Exclusivity is not an elitist thing even though a lot of Christian denominations may seem to (or unfortunately do) indicate that it is. I believe in Christ. I believe that what Christ said is true. He said that He was the way, truth and life and that no man came to the Father but by Him. The Bible also has a verse that says there is No other name given amongst men under the heavens by which they may be saved. Since I believe these things, I encourage my friends to believe as well. Out of love and concern, not some elitism.
We can muddy the waters by asking about the cave dweller in New Guinea but the truth is that for you and I (and everyone else involved in reading this thread), we have heard and been confronted with the decision to believe or reject Christ. God merely waits for us to answer...
So what about other religions? Maybe we should analyze why so many exist. I won't try to explain it but would recommend analyzing why the Hebrews felt the need to build the idol while Moses was up on the mountain as a good starting point for figuring out why man creates so many false religions. Maybe if we really understood why we do it, then we would have an easier time of throwing out the false ones...
Me too, but then, that might be knowledge, not faith...
I am a little envious of folks like my brother and Loadnabox who have had experiences that have left them with a certainty about it all. But who can say? We know not the workings of such things. Maybe it comes to the people who really need it. You know, the Footsteps in the Sand story.
Your comments really indicate to me that you have struggled through these issues in the past. Footprints in the sand has some deep truths buried in it,
Begin to pray that God will do something to make Himself real to you. Pray earnestly. Pray every time you think about God for the next month or two. Pray that He will help you to find the way to worship Him that is glorifying to Him, not you. Maybe He will reveal Himself to you. That would be cool...
Wow....
Yeah, that sums it up. I don't mind saying what I've said so far but the events that led up to my revelation are incredibly painful.
I used to quote Karl Marx, "Religion is the Opiate of the masses" though this really is more of a statement to a totalitarian regime needing religion to keep the masses subdued/appeased.
Taken out of context it can be applied to mean that we only turn to God and find him when our minds are troubled, and believing in the divine helps soothe us. That faith goes away when we're no longer troubled. A soldier who is a proclaimed atheist crying to God would be an example (No atheists in a foxhole).
In reality, what I learned, is you need to be in a frame of mind to where you can hear and understand what is trying to be imparted to you.
Both of these are true, the soldier and the frame of mind. The soldier hasn't really found religion however. The person who is troubled and finally opens themselves up suddenly sees many things clearly, though their epiphany is oft brought on by a troubling situation.
On the topic of exclusivism, there are actually very strong arguments for the opposite, that everyone can get into heaven based on a different criteria than just believing in Jesus in this current age, but it's been a while since I did all my research, I really will have to find my old essay and it's references to post a link to here. There are entire sects of Christianity that don't believe you have to be Christian at all - which is a belief that in my opinion makes a lot more sense when also believing in a just God (nowadays sure, probably 90% of the planet has had a chance to convert, even if I personally consider 80% of those chances to be unreasonable - but right after Christ 99.99999% of the planet would have been automatically condemned, and that % would have stayed very high until at least 1500 years later).
If the criteria is believing in and accepting God in whatever form, I'm still in trouble most likely as an atheist. Nothing to really be done about it though, I can't will myself to believe something that's completely at odds with both my conscious mind and my gut, and even if I could will myself to believe, there's almost zero chance I would pick Christianity, or any religion really. Those specific religions are about 8 million more layers of faith/belief than just believing in a creator, definitely not something I'm capable of doing.
Same but opposite! ;D I wish everyone could know the inner peace, positive acceptance of mortality, and total responsibility for both good and evil of knowing there is no creator without all the horrible experiences theists seem to have to go through to lose their faith! (Which is a huge part of why I count myself very lucky to simply have never been religious, I never had a faith that I needed emotionally, so when I eventually moved from agnostic to atheist it was painless).
EDIT: And I wish also that the process didn't seem to continue to be so painful even after the faith is lost (which I attribute to the emotional faith still continuing on some level), so many people describe what it felt like to be atheist before they converted back to religion as a horrible empty feeling, lack of direction, stuff that makes me really sad because it's not the experience I've had at all.
Just had a thought too:
It'd be kinda funny if God put people like me, who seem incapable of even remotely believing, on the Earth specifically to test everyone else's faith... ha.
If the criteria is believing in and accepting God in whatever form, I'm still in trouble most likely as an atheist. Nothing to really be done about it though, I can't will myself to believe something that's completely at odds with both my conscious mind and my gut, and even if I could will myself to believe, there's almost zero chance I would pick Christianity, or any religion really. Those specific religions are about 8 million more layers of faith/belief than just believing in a creator, definitely not something I'm capable of doing.
Same but opposite! ;D I wish everyone could know the inner peace, positive acceptance of mortality, and total responsibility for both good and evil of knowing there is no creator without all the horrible experiences theists seem to have to go through to lose their faith! (Which is a huge part of why I count myself very lucky to simply have never been religious, I never had a faith that I needed emotionally, so when I eventually moved from agnostic to atheist it was painless).
EDIT: And I wish also that the process didn't seem to continue to be so painful even after the faith is lost (which I attribute to the emotional faith still continuing on some level), so many people describe what it felt like to be atheist before they converted back to religion as a horrible empty feeling, lack of direction, stuff that makes me really sad because it's not the experience I've had at all.
Just had a thought too:
It'd be kinda funny if God put people like me, who seem incapable of even remotely believing, on the Earth specifically to test everyone else's faith... ha.
Last edited:
I have to take issue with those who believe that all that is required is faith in Jesus. One of the most well known scriptures is John 3:16, which many bibles translate something like "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." However, a more accurate translation would be "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life"
There is a difference between having faith and exercising faith. Excercising implies some sort of action. The scriptures support this idea, such as James 2:14-17. "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?*If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day,*yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it?*Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."
That works must accompany faith is further supported in 1 Corinthians 2:24-26. One particularly interesting scripture showing that mere belief is not enough is at James 2:19. He makes the point that even the demons believe, but this obviously will not save them. It states that they shudder, well aware of their coming fate.
I guess I don't have too much of a point to this, just some interesting lunchtime Biblical food for thought.
There is a difference between having faith and exercising faith. Excercising implies some sort of action. The scriptures support this idea, such as James 2:14-17. "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?*If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day,*yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it?*Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself."
That works must accompany faith is further supported in 1 Corinthians 2:24-26. One particularly interesting scripture showing that mere belief is not enough is at James 2:19. He makes the point that even the demons believe, but this obviously will not save them. It states that they shudder, well aware of their coming fate.
I guess I don't have too much of a point to this, just some interesting lunchtime Biblical food for thought.
Interesting, I often quote the parable of the woman at the well, Jesus asked her why she cried, and she told him her sins.
jesus response was, "Fear not child for God loves us all." But the next verse often gets left out, "GO FORTH AND SIN NO MORE"
Ooo, I'd love to hear the JW take on the devil. I have heard as many different stories/beliefs about the devil as I've met Christians basically, from those who say he doesn't exist, to he's just an angel sent to hell, to him being actually responsible for humans doing evil.
EDIT: Nevermind, I decided to stop bugging you so much and just went to the Watch Tower website, which explained JW views on the subject.
EDIT: Nevermind, I decided to stop bugging you so much and just went to the Watch Tower website, which explained JW views on the subject.
Last edited:
That's right. Sins can be forgiven, and God understands we are imperfect and doesn't expect us to be sinless from that moment forward, but one has to stop the *practicing* of sin. That's part of repenting of one's sins.
My statement about being envious... tone doesn't come across in written word so well... for me it's the same "wouldn't that be nice if I could do that too?" kind of feeling when I see people doing things that I could never do due to physical, mental, emotional, financial or societal limitations. Nothing I'd ever lose sleep over. I got used to never being the best at anything, and I settle instead for trying things most don't think of. Like making mead
That said, I actually did something very similar to that when I was questioning things at a turning point in my life about 15 years ago. I gave it an honest try. It really wasn't for me. And if I tried it now I'd feel ... wrong for me, like when I have to sit through a Catholic church service... It's just not there. And honestly, I'm genuinely OK with not knowing. I don't need to know. and I don't think this is a case of sour grapes either (sorry, picked up Aesop's fables the other day
), I really am at peace with who and what I am and where I stand in the world, and if that's all I get, I'm fine with that, I'm making the most of it while I'm here, not working myself to death like my dad did. If I accidentally collected enough doobie points to go somewhere when I'm done, great. If not, well, at least I like to think I'll leave the world a little better than I found it. The second time my world took a major tilt, I had the vague thought once or twice that if I was gonna find faith, my worst nightmare coming true would be a good time to start, but I felt no need to question, no need to look for help other than myself, my family and friends. Thanks to the answers I found within myself the first time I was questioning (learning that I am exactly as strong as I need to be when it really counts), I just needed to work through getting used to the new order of things and trying to keep my family from burning too many bridges.
My brother kept trying to urge me to let Jesus help, my response was "No, send him to the people who can't do without. If I need him he'll find me." And it wasn't just to get him to stop trying to convert me either, if there is in fact a Jesus who helps people through troubled times, then he SHOULD be helping those who can't do it themselves, not wasting his time on me when I'll manage. It'd feel like wasting the doctor's time for a Band-Aid on a boo-boo when there are people behind me who need limbs reattached. I guess that sounds a little arrogant "I don't need Jesus, I can do it by myself!" or maybe even immature like the little kid who doesn't want Mommy's help and maybe I'll eat crow on my deathbed or if I find something that I can't get through on my own, but I am also pretty honest about 'fessing up to my mistakes and changing my beliefs based upon new information. And I'm OK with being in a position of "wait and see".
Some people need it as a crutch, hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get through life. No shame in it, none at all. Some people have experiences, epiphanies, (my brother called his a "reckoning") that change their beliefs, which is really cool, and some people just know things are so, which I find even more interesting because they DIDN'T have to need it, they didn't have to be shown, they just always knew... And I guess some people need it for now and then drop off once the need is gone, from what I've seen and read, a lot of interpersonal relationships develop and dissolve because of needs and lack thereof, so why would it not be the same with a relationship with God or Jesus? (love the soldier analogy, and I sincerely mean no offence, but when I say "Oh my god!" out of pain, surprise or fear, I don't think it means the same thing to me as to you when you say it for a similar reason, it's a linguistic habit that's comfortable for the society I'm used to, monkey see, monkey do, ook ook says the agnostic ;D)
Last edited:
This crowd may have not read Walker Percy's The Second Coming.
An existential tome. A man goes in to a cave to wait for god to bring him out. I love the ambiguous answer he gets. People on both sides of the argument will be tempted to say "See! I told you so!"
An existential tome. A man goes in to a cave to wait for god to bring him out. I love the ambiguous answer he gets. People on both sides of the argument will be tempted to say "See! I told you so!"
That reminds me of an old, old joke (please forgive me for the poor re-telling).
A ship sinks and one of the passengers is left floating in the water. Some folks in a lifeboat offer to pick him up and he says, "Don't worry, God will protect me. Go save someone else." Then a Coast Guard cutter pulls up and he waves them off saying, "Go get someone else. God will take care of me." Finally a helicopter lowers a rope and he says, "I'm okay. Go help someone else. God will save me."
Of, course after a time, he tires out, sinks under the water and drowns and winds up in front of the pearly gates with a stunned look on his face. He says to St. Peter, "how can this be? I've always had faith in God and I was sure he would help me." Well, St. Peter looks up from his book and scratches his head and says, "hmmm... Let's see. It looks like God sent you a life boat, a Coast Guard cutter, and a helicopter. What more did you want him to do?"
Of, course after a time, he tires out, sinks under the water and drowns and winds up in front of the pearly gates with a stunned look on his face. He says to St. Peter, "how can this be? I've always had faith in God and I was sure he would help me." Well, St. Peter looks up from his book and scratches his head and says, "hmmm... Let's see. It looks like God sent you a life boat, a Coast Guard cutter, and a helicopter. What more did you want him to do?"
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that God helps those who help themselves? ;D
