Questions about a few grains....

[ucflumberjack]

Hello yall. I have been toying with the thought of another braggot and have come with a few questions about a few grains. I want to make it after a belgian kinda, but a little darker and a little sweeter. Like blue moon with the citrus flavor to it, but a little darker, a little sweeter, and alot higher in alcohol. i was thinking OB honey. Or i want to make one thats like a scotch ale, slightly roasty, identifiably smokey, sweet and malty, high in alcohol, little to no hop presence. for the honey i would go buckwheat, i know, its a beast, but im really startin to like the buckwheat show mead and i want to know how a braggot would stand up to its power. the questions are:

1. I will be mini mashing, so i would like to get as much of the beer sugar from my mini mash as possible, and then steep something else to get the sweetness/smokiness/maltiness. What "belgian" grains can be steeped for sweetness and maltiness?
2. Blue Moon is a wheat beer, what "belgian" grain would i use in the mini mash to preserve this character, belgian wheat i suppose?
3.wheat can be mashed by itself right?
4. should i include biscuit and aromatic to help preserve the "blue moon" taste of this one?
5. do those have to be mashed?
6. should i go as far as to use wheat DME to make up the difference?
7. can peated malt be steeped?

man. 7 questions in one post, i think they are mostly yes or no's though... thanx yall.

 

[wildaho]

Belgian Wits (of which Blue Moon is, sort of) traditionally use a large proportion of unmalted wheat which cannot be mashed by itself. Traditionally, it's mashed with a pilsner malt. I've used wheat LME before and it came out alright though. And most of the recipes I've seen don't include bisquit or aromatic malts, just pilsner and wheat. The majority of the distinctive flavor there comes from the coriander and citrus peel as well as the yeast used.

Be very careful with Peated Malt! It's very easy to over do it. Rauch Malt is probably a better alternative in that you can control the amount of smoke flavor easier. A quarter pound of Peated in a five gallon batch will give a lot of smokey flavor, a half pound sends it around the bend and makes it almost undrinkable.

On the other hand, you can use up to 5 pounds of Rauch Malt and still be good. Rauch is more "bacony" and the Peated is more harsh.

And yes, both varieties require a mash if you want something besides just smoke flavor from them. I've never tried just steeping them but I would think that some of the smokiness would transfer over, it's worth a try!

Color is the other issue. Do you want to keep it pale, like a Wit? Or darker, like a scottish ale? That will help determine what to use for added maltiness/sweetness.

 

[akueck]

Use wheat LME, unmalted grains are a pain unless you've got the setup. (You have to solubulize the starches and then convert them to sugars, it's all very sticky.) I put some flaked wheat (basically Quaker oats--already solubulized, though uber sticky) in my Blue Moon clone for authenticity, but only a couple ounces. Came out great with mostly wheat extract and some malted wheat + flaked oats for oomph. (wheat extracts are typically only 40-60% wheat and the rest barley, ask around. the 50/50 mark is traditional wit style.)

If you're looking for dark and sweet try Special B grain--raisiny dark flavor and deep color. Can be steeped.

If you go the wit route I would advise to use OB honey to complement the citrus flavors from the coriander and orange peel. You don't want too many flavors making war. ;D

 

[ucflumberjack]

lol... hmmm.... maybe i should have been more specific, i was trying to say that i was going to choose a braggot either after the style of a scotch ale or a belgian witbier. so it would be either a belgian witbier with OB honey, coriander, orange peel, wheat LME, some carmel malt, hops etc.. OR a scottish braggot with BW honey, peated malt, marris otter, lots of carmel malt, chocolate malt, some hops etc.. I think im gonna go with the scotch ale braggot since i think i'll like that better and im curious to see how much of a war i will have on my hands with the BW honey. I'm thinking something like this:

-6# marris otter (the most my handy masher can handle)
-2oz peated malt(also in the mash)
-2# british crystal (steeped)
-4oz chocolate malt(steeped)
-DME to 7%(90 mins boil, assuming some of it wont be fermented after long boil)
-1.5 oz northern brewer hops (60 mins boil)
-16oz belgian candi sugar(i just think it tastes awesome and what else am i gonna use it for?, 90 min boil)
-.5 oz fuggles(10 minutes, not to overpower the honey/malt)
-BW honey to 10-12% depending on taste of must
-maltiest beer yeast i can find for primary, k1v if the beer yeast doesnt cut it
-keg or bottle, probably keg.

hmmm.... what do ya think about that? 2oz peated should leave it at a subtle smokiness? id use rauch but my brewshop doesnt carry it they do have a "smoked malt" in the german grain section, maybe i should just use that and german dark crystal instead of the marris otter/english crystal/chocolate/peated malt? the long boil should carmelize some of the sugar and make it more scottish, then the buckwheat honey might have to be added very sparingly, and maybe even some OB instead to get the gravity up to where i want it? if i did use all buckwheat honey i could probably use more fuggles though right?

 

[wildaho]

Well, now that you have it narrowed down, here's my basic scottish ale recipe that comes out at over 9% abv and at about 25 IBU. It's all-grain but I'm sure you can convert, especially since you are doing a mini-mash.

• 13 lbs Marris Otter
• 2 lbs Brown Sugar
• 1/2 lbs chocolate malt
• 1/4 lbs Peated malt
• 1 oz East Kent Goldings (60 minutes)
• 0.5 oz Fuggles (15 minutes)
• 1 oz Fuggles (5 minutes)
• White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Yeast

Mash at 155 degrees for fuller body.

I used to use 2 pounds of crystal 40 and one less pound of MO but I found a technique that works better than adding the crystal, it adds a whole lot more flavor and yumminess. Take the first gallon or so of your first runnings from your sparge and boil it hard until you have a thick syrup. In other words, boil it until you're down to somewhere between a pint and a quart. Now add that back into your wort (see postscript).

I also do a 90 minute boil to get that little extra on the caramelization. I add the first hops after 30 minutes so they get a full hour in there. And the fuggles, I just love 'em! So round and earthy! Anyway, I don't think you'd go wrong with this hop schedule, you barely notice the bitterness but you get all kinds of flavor. And they're not citrusey like cascades or other PNW hops, they're nice and earthy instead.

I'd use as much of the MO as you can, it pretty much defines the style. Obviously, the brown sugar can go and be replaced with honey, which I would add in primary, not in the kettle. I wouldn't go much beyond 4oz of the peated (1/4 lb) and the 2oz you call out will be good starting point.

So, here's my suggestion based on your braggot recipe and my scottish ale:

• 6 lbs Marris Otter (mini-mash at 155 degrees)
• 3 to 4 lbs DME (1.065 to 1.075 og @ 75% effenciency on your mash)
• 4 oz to 8 oz Chocolate malt
• 2 oz Peated malt
• 1 oz EK Goldings (60 min)
• 0.5 oz Fuggles (15 min)
• 1 oz Fuggles (5 min)
• White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh yeast (it's easy to push this one past 10-12% with aeration and a fairly low temp {60-65 degrees}, higher temps work well but get fruitier, not that that is bad thing with this recipe. Actually, I'd go around 70-75 for the extra flavors)
• Honey to adjust to final gravity in primary, not the kettle. Maybe even the secondary?

If you don't add any honey, you should end up between 1.065 to 1.080 (6.5% to 7.5%) from just the beer components. I guess it depends on how much of the honey character you want. Honestly, as malty and sweet as this recipe already is, I'm not sure how dry the honey will make it. The ale recipe works well by itself at 9.5% and it finishes at around 1.018, still lots of sweetness left. If you go much beyond 1.080 though, I think I'd do two yeasts: the wlp028 to let the beer ferment and then add the honey and the a wine yeast to bring it down in the range you want. Wine yeast will ferment some of the sugars that a beer yeast won't.

I'd love to hear what you do with this! I haven't tried a braggot yet but I've had a few ideas along those lines.

(postscript: The boiling down to syrup thing -- after you've boiled it down this far, you are at the "hard ball" candy stage. Take a spoonful and drop it on some wax paper. Oh! My! F***ing! God! I want to do a batch of malt candy. I figure out of 5 gallons, I might get two pounds of candy. It's so good! Like nothing I've ever had before.)

(post postscript: I've been sipping on a couple bottles of the Stone 11th Anniversary Ale tonight while I type this. It's been called a Black IPA but it's got a beautiful honey sweetness going on without a whole lot of hop bitterness, more flavor than anything. Very well balanced. And very enjoyable!)

 

[wildaho]

Oh. And as far as the german smoked malt that your LHBS has: it's more than likely Rauch malt. Rauch biers originated in Bamburg afterall. Try a bottle of Aecht Schlenkerla Rauchbier Urbock or anything else from that brewery to see what Rauch Malt does for a beer. They specialize in it. It's definitely different than peated malt. Smoother, more bacony, and more gentle on the palate, not so abrupt.

I haven't tried a beer using rauch malt yet but it's definitely on the agenda. And with the proper honey (buckwheat perhaps?) I want to try a mead/braggot with it. The beauty of it is that you can use it as a major part of your fermentables and still adjust the flavor. With peated, it's very easy to over do the smoke, and the character can be harsh if you're not careful. Almost like turpentine or kerosene!

 

[ucflumberjack]

Hmmm..... well..... I'm thinking about just doing two mashes in the handy masher so i can have 12 #'s of marris otter. I just wont sparge each batch much. Hmmm... maybe i should save that experiment for a later date and just focus on one thing at a time here... I emailed the LHBS and the guy that brews alot still over there suggested peated and marris otter instead of smoked and munich. It'll probably look like this:

Mash:
-6# marris otter
-2oz peated malt

-i might try the syrup idea and leave out the british crystal

steep:
-4oz chocoalte malt
-2# british crystal

boil:
-90 minute boil
-add 3# DME at 0 minutes
-add 1oz northern brewer at 30 minutes
-add 1oz at 10 minutes
-add 1 tbsp. Irish Moss at 10 minutes

primary:
-wyeast 1728 scottish ale yeast, finish with wine yeast if necessary
-6# Buckwheat Honey, maybe less depending on gravity, i want to double the gravity with the honey so at least half the fermentables come from honey, i think thats the rule about braggots right?
-just a few grams fermaid-k, maybe 2, at end of lag phase, and maybe 2 at 1/3 to help ferment all the honey, probably a bit of DAP if i have to repitch with wine yeast


The yeast is based on what my LHBS carries. This one should happen hopefully within a month.

 

[wildaho]

Looks good to me!

You might try fuggles for your last addition instead of the northern brewers though. They just have such an earthy roundness that rides so well with the light roastiness and the maltiness. It's gotten to be about my favorite hop. NB's can be a little on the harsh side sometimes.

Good luck! :cheers:

 

[ucflumberjack]

more questions about grains. i have done some research but have found conflicting opinions, maybe yall could contribute some personal experience?

i have been thinking more about different beer recipes and im wondering now about:

-munich: i have seen differing descriptions about this one, many descriptions are about the same as if it were just crystal, but im pretty sure it can be used as a base malt. how does it differ from american pale 2 row? is it sweeter? more body? roasty? nutty?

-victory: the LHBS website says it is a good base for nut brown so i suppose its nutty?

-malt with prefix "cara": does this just mean its not actually malted? or that it doesnt contribute fermentables?

 

[wildaho]

Munich (and it's cousin, Vienna) are essentially very slightly darker roasted versions of pilsner malt. It adds a very nice maltiness that pale can't quite achieve by itself. It can be a little nutty. Think of an Oktoberfest Marzen, most marzens are brewed almost entirely with Munich & Vienna (and sometimes pils malt too). Unlike crystal, it must be mashed and it can be used as a base malt. It also has enough diastatic power to convert other grains as well.

Victory is a great malt. I'd call it more "bisquity" than I would nutty though. I throw in a pound or two each of the munich and victory in my IPA recipes. It makes a great combination. You would think that my IPA's are malty enough with Marris Otter as the base but these two really kick it up notch.

The majority of the "cara" malts are variations of crystal malts. They have been malted, but then they are stewed and kilned, killing any enzymes. They can't be used as a base malt. In fact, "cara" originally started off as "caramel". Some maltsters use the term crystal, others use "cara". But they are pretty much the same thing. It just depends on the malt (and maltster) they come from.