Strong braggot recipe help

[mccann51]

Hi, all.

I've been wanting to do a really high ABV mead for some time now. Recently, I also started getting a barleywine itch (as always, too many ideas, not enough time or money). In the interest of economy, I've decided to kill two birds w one big-ass rock and go for a BIG braggot.

My biggest hang-up right now is what malt to use. For the yeast, I'm gonna try out White Labs High Gravity Yeast. I'm gonna push it and see if it can ferment a 1.145-1.150 OG wort-must (wust?). I'm gonna have most of my fermentables be from the honey (2/3) so that the FG hopefully isn't above 1.010. I'm kind of going for a Belgian Quad-Barleywine approach in the grain-bill; I read that the High Gravity Yeast gives off more Belgian-style esters the higher the gravity goes.

Right now, my grain bill for a 2.5 gal batch is:
6 lbs Maris Otter
2 lbs malted rye
1 lb Special B
1 lb melanoidin

This'll give me about 1.050, and so I'll make up the rest of the OG with some honey varietals (~7-8 lbs).

My two big questions are: is the malted rye gonna work for a big brew like this? I don't want the flavor to get muddy, but it seems like the spicyness from the rye would be at home in a barleywine or quad; does this make sense? And, will the melanoidin and Special B be giving me much body, or should I consider swapping some out for some Carapils or Crystal malt? I realize this is gonna be dry, but I do want it to have some beer body.

I guess while I'm asking, I was thinking about having 2-4 oz of Warrior at 60 mins. This seem good?

Haven't decided what varieties of honey to use yet; we'll get to that when I see what's available from the local beek I've been talking with.

Also, if anybody (here's looking at you, Medsen and AToE) have any suggestions for extra fermentation management, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, all!

 

[YogiBearMead726]

While this isn't exactly what you were asking about, I would consider using some dark Belgian candi sugar. It'll help give you some of that classic "quad" flavor without increasing the body.

As for the rye, it might be a bit much in terms of flavor, but I'm a big fan of rye. I guess it really comes down to your tastes, but rye is great for that spice character you might want.

For hops, I'd add a noble hop variety for balance, since Warrior can get pretty intense on it's own. Maybe the noble for bitterness or aroma and the Warrior for aroma/flavor.

For honey, I'd go for maybe a blend of buckwheat and clover? It's a tough call, but finding honey that can stand up to the intense flavors found in most Belgian quads.

I really like this idea, and might try it myself. We should trade a few bottles once I finally make it down to you...

 

[mccann51]

Out of curiosity, what about Warrior is overpowering? For the hops, I think I want to have them just for bittering, don't want much in the way of flavor or aroma (would lose most of it in aging anyway). I could see a spicy or herbal hop such as the nobles being good, though, my only concern would be the low AA in noble hops. Does 2 oz of Nugget at 60 min seem like a better choice?

As per the candi suggestion: I was thinking about this, but decided against it simply because I don't want this to be a full on quad-style braggot; more of a barleywine-style braggot with a subtle "nod to the quad". Perhaps I'm trying to accomplish too much.

I think you might be right about the rye being too much. I do like that rye spiciness, but perhaps it would make more sense to keep the recipe simple for now. I also decided to drop the melanoidin after some more reading (it looks like mashing for a bit longer helps produce some melanoidins). So now I'm thinking 9 lbs Maris Otter, 1 lb Special B.

I understand your suggestion of buckwheat, but why clover? Isn't clover a pretty light honey? (I've never brewed with it)

I like your idea! I've been on a big beer kick lately, and it would be awesome to try a fellow brewer's wares.

 

[wayneb]

Unless you're really after the prune-y, raisiny flavor that will come from the Special B, I'd cut it back to about 1/2 lb and sub the other half with Carapils (if you just want body) or Munich (if you're looking for more malt). I happen to like the dried fruit character that Special B brings to the table (check out my Braggot-docio recipe), but it isn't to everyone's taste. Also, that much dried fruit along with the rye spiciness might clash a bit.

As far as managing an Uber-high initial gravity is concerned, especially where a significant fraction of the total fermentables comes from honey, I'd recommend a large pitch (consider building up a big starter), using some yeast nutrient after lag is over (remember that the honey won't bring nearly as much YAN to your yeast as an equivalent amount of grain would), and don't be afraid to aerate until the 1/3 sugar break or so. Keep in mind that you'll manage this ferment much more like that of a mead or wine than like a beer. The extra O2 won't come close to the point where you could oxidize the batch, since your yeast will happily use all that you can give them early in this fermentation.

BTW - This is my kind of brew -- I like the aim of your big-ass rock!

 

[mccann51]

What do you think of dropping the Special B to 0.5 lb and adding a lighter crystal, say 60L or 80L? I do like the dark fruit flavor, though, so I'll have to think about it.

Your advice about making a starter is duly noted. And no worries on aeration and nutrients: I plan to shake this one til I'm blue in the face and feed it nothing but Fermaid! I know, I know, I'm gonna spoil the little guys, haha.

 

[AToE]

I like the idea for sure, have my own uber-braggot coming up (still no real idea of what my ABV will be in the end, have to make that decision). One issue is carbonation - this is going to finish very sweet (above and beyond unfermentables obviously), and force carbonation will be your only option unless you lower that starting gravity and use an uber yeast.

I'm with Wayne on management, it's not going to be tough, just give it a decent amount of nutrients and plenty of O2 and you're laughing, malts add so much that it's a cakewalk compared to a traditional or even a melomel.

Special B - back way off, honestly even 1/2 pound is a LOT for this size of batch... unless you are seriously in love with the stuff. Take a look at Braggot-docio, which for my tastes even has a bit too much special B.

Esters - I don't think any real high ABV wine yeast is going to get you anything like what a Belgian style yeast will, you could do a 2-phase ferment, start with that kind of ale yeast then add your high ABV yeast - but those esters have a shelf life for sure, and something super high ABV is going to require a loooong time to age, meaning those esters will be gone by the time you drink it anyways.

 

[commonsenseman]

Don't have much to add except that I really like this idea. Braggots are my favorite. This is a huge freakin' Braggot too, just awesome.

Belgian Candi sugar is just caramelized table sugar right? Couldn't you just caramelize some honey for a similar flavor?

Edit: WLP099 is the yeast you're thinking of using? White Labs claims it can go to 25% under perfect conditions (is that even possible), so in theory you should be ok bottle carbing.

 

[mccann51]

Yeah, Belgian candi is just carmelized sugar. I've heard it's ridiculously easy to make - I'd imagine it's just cooked sugar - but never tried it myself.

Okay, so I realized I messed up my number a bit. I had double the grain I was intending (since this is a 2.5 gal, not 5). So the ideal grain bill woulda been 4.5 lbs Maris Otter, 0.25 lb Special B (yeah, decided to drop it), and 0.25 lb 60L crystal. Now, that said, the LHBS did not have Special B! Total disappointment. The guy said they hadn't had it in like 6 weeks, so I figured no point waiting. I decided to go with 0.25 lb CaraMunich and 0.25 lb Special B, unless somebody thinks this is a bad idea. Really hoping to get at least some of that dark fruit.

They brewstore also didn't have Nugget, ugh. I decided to go for 2 oz of Columbus instead.

Luckily, they did have the White Labs High Gravity yeast; if they didn't, this project would've been put on hold.

Got a starter going an hour ago, so I'll brew manana. I've got some California wildflower that is dark and kinda marshmallow-y, so that will be the honey for this one. If it turns out well, I'll play with different varietals next time. I just don't wanna wait til next week when I can pick some other stuff up.

Thanks for the feedback everybody!

 

[Ziggybrew]

mccann51,
For some reason, I don't care to much for rye. What do ya think if I tried something similar with a honey malt instead of the rye? Less of course than 2 pounds. This recipe looks interesting. Thanks