Yeast management

[huntfishtrap]

Do you guys recomend the same process: hydration with Go-Ferm, fermaid at end of lag, fermaid at 1/3 sugar break, aeration through out, for wine also?

Howabout beer?

Thanks

Paul

 

[Medsen Fey]

I think the GoFerm is great for all of them. There is nothing like a bunch of well hydrated yeast to get things rolling.

For most beers, extra nutrients aren't required. I would add some for beers that have a lot of non-malt adjunct sugars (or braggots). I normally don't aerate beers after pitching the yeast, and would only do this if I were making a very high gravity type like a barley wine. Rehydrated yeast will have enough sterols from their production to easily get to 5-6% ABV.

For winemaking, I definitely rehydrate with GoFerm. I definitely aerate it up to the 1/3 fermentation point. I typically do additions of nutrients (both DAP and Fermaid K) in staggered fashion, but usually use less than I would in a traditional mead since the fruit will provide some. Because I don't typically know what the nitrogen content of the musts are, I'll generally use 1/2 what I would for a traditional mead.

Now the only grape wines I have made have been kits, and they didn't need anything added. Were I making wines from whole grapes, and didn't know the nitrogen content, I would err on the side of adding the Fermaid K. When it comes to yeast stress and H2S, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Medsen

 

[STLBrewer]

I don't make wine, so I will not comment on that, but:

DO NOT AERATE BEER AFTER FERMENTATION BEGINS! It will oxydize the wort and hurt the beer, in the end.

With beer, typically you will aerate the chilled wort right before you pitch the yeast (rehydrated or liquid) for anywhere from 1 - 3 minutes...your time may vary.

At least as far as I am aware, this is a BAD practice to use with beer.

 

[huntfishtrap]

Thanks a lot guys! Fortunatly, I havent done any of this stuff yet, so I havn't ruined my beer. But I will start doing it with the Apple Wine I am pitching tonight!

Thanks

Paul

 

[STLBrewer]

Refresh my memory...what is in apple wine? At least, the version you are making?

If it is like wine or mead, I am pretty sure aeration is okay...

 

[huntfishtrap]

I actually have an Apple wine I started last night. It is supermarket juice. It has a crushed camden tablet, so I will pitch yeast tonight. I think I will go ahead and start it with Go-Ferm. It will be a real learning experience because I am trying open fermentation for the primary. I suppose I will be able to see bubbles rising in the must to know when the lag phase is over, so I can put in the Fermaid.
I'm a little concerned about having enough to take gravity readings with a one gallon batch.

Paul

 

[akueck]

Aerating beer after pitching is actually very common, especially those beers over about 6%. The time frame is much more compressed than with wine or mead, so aeration might stop on day 1 instead of day 3-5 with mead. Oxidation won't happen as long as the yeast are using up the oxygen you add--this happens during the initial stages of fermentation when the yeast population is rapidly growing (which continues to roughly the 1/3-1/2 break). Aeration after this point can lead to oxidation--in beer, wine, or mead.

Underpitching is more common with beer than mead (or so it seems), so aeration can combat some of the stress associated with low cell counts by providing fuel for growth. Most common-gravity beers, if pitched at an appropriate level, don't require air after pitching. Most common-gravity beers, however, require more yeast than comes in the WhiteLabs or Wyeast tubes/packets by about a factor of 2-3.

 

[wildaho]

I'm in complete agree with akueck on the beer aeration. I aerate all my bigger beers (8%-14%) until the 1/3 sugar break. It speeds up the fermentation considerably, helps insure full attenuation and there are no noticeable oxidative effects even after being in the bottle for years. I've got a batch of 14% Belgian golden bulk aging in a corny for almost two years that still has no oxidation flavors. I'm thinking about oaking this one and bottling in a couple more months.

 

[Oskaar]

I don't make wine, so I will not comment on that, but:

DO NOT AERATE BEER AFTER FERMENTATION BEGINS! It will oxydize the wort and hurt the beer, in the end.

With beer, typically you will aerate the chilled wort right before you pitch the yeast (rehydrated or liquid) for anywhere from 1 - 3 minutes...your time may vary.

At least as far as I am aware, this is a BAD practice to use with beer.

I do and have done so for years. During the first couple of days the CO2 production is so intense that it will literally strip off any O2 before there will be danger of oxidation. The vulnerablility point of beer is much wider however than in wine or mead, so I don't recommend oxygenation past the first day to two days. Bear in mind that free O2 during he aerobic phase is necessary in any fermentation, the medium may be different so there are points past which it is not advisable to aerate.

This is a simple fact early on in order for the cell wall to develop fully and provide osmotic regulation, nucleation points for budding/reproduction, nitrogen uptake and proper proton pump regulation of the protien gradient within the cell and internal pH regulation.

 

[STLBrewer]

I do and have done so for years. During the first couple of days the CO2 production is so intense that it will literally strip off any O2 before there will be danger of oxidation. The vulnerablility point of beer is much wider however than in wine or mead, so I don't recommend oxygenation past the first day to two days. Bear in mind that free O2 during he aerobic phase is necessary in any fermentation, the medium may be different so there are points past which it is not advisable to aerate.

This is a simple fact early on in order for the cell wall to develop fully and provide osmotic regulation, nucleation points for budding/reproduction, nitrogen uptake and proper proton pump regulation of the protien gradient within the cell and internal pH regulation.

Not to be argumentative here, but I do not think that any aeration after fermentation has begun (in beer only) is advisable...not to say you can't, but there is a very fine line between it being potentially helpful and very harmful.

Again, this is just my somewhat experienced (been brewing beer for 2 1/2 years) opinion...I am no expert, nor claim to be, but I have read quite a bit on brewing beer. ;D

 

[huntfishtrap]

Wow guys, thanks a lot for your responses! Last night I hydrated my yeast, and got the fermaid and dap ready. I don't have a scale that measures less than a gram, and I only need a one gram dose of the 70/30 blend for a one gallon batch (I think that is right by what I've been reading). So I measured 7 grams of fermaid and 3 grams of dap and blended those together as good as I cood, then measured out one gram of that blend. I hope the proportions are OK. If not, it's a fun experiment.
So I put in the fermaid/dap blend and dumped in the hydrated yeast (I don't have GoFerm yet). And stirred it up real good. This morning, there was a little foam on top, and it smelled like fermentation had started. This is my first open fermentation, and I am wondering, what are the clues that the lag stage has ended? I am guessing it has by the smell and the foam, but I couldnt see any bubbles rising. Oh yeah, here's what my recipe is.
1 gal supermarket pasturized apple juice with no preservatives
8 oz sugar
1 camden tablet - crushed
red star dry champaign yeast (Im at work, cant remember a number), LHBS's "this will work" yeast
1 gram 70/30 fermaid/dap at pitch
1 gram fermaid at end of lag
1 gram fermaid at 1/3 sugar break
aerate up to 1/3 sugar break

pitch temp was 65* f, SG 1064

So as I'm typing this, I have an OH S**T! moment. I'm visualizing hydrating the yeast and I realize I mixed up two different projects. I was going to make a gallon of sugar based alcohol for making extracts and liquers. I hydrated the 2 packs of "Montreche" (spelling?) for the apple wine instead of the champaign yeast. So, I guess I will end up with a very dry wine. I can deal with that. I've got to slow down, I'm so pumped about all this fun. Yay.

I wonder, can I dump some more sugar in to make the most of the yeast I put in? If I add sugar until I get a gravity of 1130 or 1140, that should use most of the ability of the yeast, correct? If so, should I step it in, or dump it in?

Thanks for your help

Paul

 

[Medsen Fey]

So as I'm typing this, I have an OH S**T! moment. I'm visualizing hydrating the yeast and I realize I mixed up two different projects. I was going to make a gallon of sugar based alcohol for making extracts and liquers. I hydrated the 2 packs of "Montreche" (spelling?) for the apple wine instead of the champaign yeast. So, I guess I will end up with a very dry wine. I can deal with that. I've got to slow down, I'm so pumped about all this fun. Yay.

Hi Paul,

I'm still a bit unclear about which yeast you pitched into the juice. In either case, it is going to go dry. With a gravity of 1.064, you are looking at a Potential alcohol level of about 8.5% and virtually any yeast will take it dry.

Whether you want to add sugar depends on what alcohol level you want to reach (and what sweetness level you want). If you want this to be something to drink quickly, you may be fine at the current level. If you want to have something to age longer, getting the alcohol level up to around 10% or so may be helpful.

What are you aiming for?

Medsen

 

[huntfishtrap]

I'm still a bit unclear about which yeast you pitched into the juice.

Hi Medsen, I called the LHBS, the yeast I was ment to use is Red Star Montrachet, the yeast I accidently used was EC1118.

What are you aiming for?

My primary goal is to compare Apple Wine to Sparkling Cider, using a wine style yeast on the first and an ale style yeast on the second. The LHBS says both yeast would ferment that batch dry, so really, I guess the end result hasnt changed. Except that I have to get new yeast for my other project.

I am now just wondering if I should add some more sugar to get the most out of the yeast or just leave it alone.

Thanks

Paul

 

[akueck]

I helped a neighbor do a side-by-side cider set with wine yeast vs. ale yeast. They came out very differently. The ale yeast (an English strain) preserved more of the fresh apple flavors, and the wine yeast made it taste more like, well, wine. Both were equally dry and both were good. Personally I prefer the wine flavor, but my neighbor likes the apple flavor more.

@STL
We're not trying to be argumentative either, just as informative as possible. We all agree that beer has a finer line between helpful aeration and oxidative problems. You certainly don't need to aerate your beers (or meads for that matter), but a lot of brewers have found it helpful especially for high gravity ales. It's a good idea to stay away from "always" and "never" statements, they tend to get people riled up--there will be counterexamples no matter what you say.

 

[STLBrewer]

We're not trying to be argumentative either, just as informative as possible. We all agree that beer has a finer line between helpful aeration and oxidative problems. You certainly don't need to aerate your beers (or meads for that matter), but a lot of brewers have found it helpful especially for high gravity ales. It's a good idea to stay away from "always" and "never" statements, they tend to get people riled up--there will be counterexamples no matter what you say.

True...I shouldn't have put never in there. I just don't find it to be one of those "best practices" scenarios when it comes to beer.

I can see how it would benefit up to a point...I will not question that! I am just not able to monitor my fermentation as closely as it seems that would take...

Either way, if it makes good beer (or mead, cider, or wine) it can't be all that bad!

 

[huntfishtrap]

Thanks a lot for all the input guys! I definatly understand that things can be as simple or as complex as a guy wants to make them. I will be very careful with air and beer.

Paul