Toggle sidebar

Origins of life

  • PATRONS: Did you know we've a chat function for you now? Look to the bottom of the screen, you can chat, set up rooms, talk to each other individually or in groups! Click 'Chat' at the right side of the chat window to open the chat up.
  • Love Gotmead and want to see it grow? Then consider supporting the site and becoming a Patron! If you're logged in, click on your username to the right of the menu to see how as little as $30/year can get you access to the patron areas and the patron Facebook group and to support Gotmead!
  • We now have a Patron-exclusive Facebook group! Patrons my join at The Gotmead Patron Group. You MUST answer the questions, providing your Patron membership, when you request to join so I can verify your Patron membership. If the questions aren't answered, the request will be turned down.
Barrel Char Wood Products
What of the sense of Sacred?

For an atheist (or agnostic), is the word "sacred" meaningful? Do you have a sense of the sacred?

If so, in what way? What counts to you as sacred?

Your greatgranddad's snowshoes? The compost heap? The glorious blossoming Spring? Gazing into a baby's eyes for the first time? Standing on an elephant or having a deer cross your path? Mom's favorite poem? Aunt Julia's perfume? Dad's screwdriver? Your beverage frother? A book? Some thoughts or concepts? The weight of your cat on your chest? A lover's ecstatic embrace? Help me out here...

What counts as not sacred?
 
Sacred, huh? Good question. Things with history, very old things, sometimes places, strike something in me where I would feel that if the thing or place were lost, destroyed or changed too much, humanity has lost a piece of itself.

Despite my being non-religious, I still find that churches are awe-instilling, seeing photos of bombed-out churches saddens me because I know the kind of work and emotion that has been poured into them by the people who created and use them.

My beverage frother isn't sacred, it's just a thing, if I find someone who needs it worse than I do, it can be replaced, if I find a tool more suited to the job, I won't hesitate, other than my usual "if it does the job, why do I want to pay more again to replace it?" reaction and my dislike for today's disposable society... however, things I inerited from my deceased father like furniture he made and his record collection are things I want to hang on to because they help me remember him, they bring up a lot of memories of my whole childhood. But they're not the same to me as, say, a museum piece or church relic, they're just memory-evoking to me personally. Then again, I have a lot of memories attached to things and I have a hard time letting go of anything I think I might miss when it's gone.
 
TheAlchemist said:
For an atheist (or agnostic), is the word "sacred" meaningful? Do you have a sense of the sacred?

If so, in what way? What counts to you as sacred?

Your greatgranddad's snowshoes? The compost heap? The glorious blossoming Spring? Gazing into a baby's eyes for the first time? Standing on an elephant or having a deer cross your path? Mom's favorite poem? Aunt Julia's perfume? Dad's screwdriver? Your beverage frother? A book? Some thoughts or concepts? The weight of your cat on your chest? A lover's ecstatic embrace? Help me out here...

What counts as not sacred?
Click to expand...



For me, from the point of humor, nothing is sacred.

From the point of what makes me feel closer to God? Nothing beats nature. Get as far away from people as possible, view the splendor that abounds away from what man has created, and I commune in a really meaningful way.

Going into a church leaves me questioning my own belief in God despite my own very personal experiences and beliefs. Interesting eh? Church has the opposite effect.
 
TheAlchemist said:
For an atheist (or agnostic), is the word "sacred" meaningful? Do you have a sense of the sacred?

If so, in what way? What counts to you as sacred?

What counts as not sacred?
Click to expand...

Life is sacred, extremely so. Human life most, because I'm human. That's about it for me.

Great creations of humanity are by-association sacred to me. I would never burn a book, deface a work of art, so forth and so on. These things evoke a great sense of sacredness in me, but it's not quite on the same level as life, so I'm not sure (does "sacred" only apply to the maximum, or are there various levels of sacred? I guess that's more of a linguistics question!).

EDIT: Ok, I figured out what the most sacred thing to me is as far as how it makes me feel. A big oooolllllld tree. I repect things that are better evolved for their niche than I am, and like sharks and bees, trees are pretty perfect for what they do. Also, they live a lot longer than me, and the older something is the more awed by it I am.

I could sit next to a really ancient tree all day feeling humbled.

Loadnabox said:
From my stance I would say you are partially right and partially wrong.

I understand from the aspect of an atheist saying that "no deity" is the default. I understand the frustration in it being argued otherwise too. I will go on to say this is what moved me to agnosticism though. With that preface to my next statement; I began to realize that if I was being scientific and intellectually honest, you couldn't assume a default, there wasn't enough evidence either way to make a verdict either way and assuming a default was intellectually as faulty logic. Following up with the caveat again this is what moved me to agnosticism.
Click to expand...

If an atheist were to say "there is scientifically absolutely no creator" then you'd be right, that would be faulty. However to say there is non required, seems to be no evidence of one, therefor I am completely emotionally and rationally convinced a creator's existance is so vastly less likely than there being no creator, that's what we generally mean by no-creator being the default. We as people tend to round up the odds when we speak about this stuff, many believers would admit it's technically possible there's no creator, but would still say they are utterly sure there is one, atheists the opposite.

It would be too tiring to sit there and figure out what each of us actually thinks the odds are in one way or the other, and then instead of calling myself atheist I'd have to call myself 99.999999999% atheist, 00.000000001% agnostic!

So one can remain "totally" atheist while still being honest about the fact that a creator cannot be disproven (by "totally" we just mean as totally as is possible, not the true scientific definition of "totally").
 
AToE said:
...many believers would admit it's technically possible there's no creator, but would still say they are utterly sure there is one, atheists the opposite. ..
Click to expand...

One of my favorite quotes is from a Rabbi, "Anyone who claims to know for sure there is a God is lying, in truth all of us are agnostics, pondering his reality at one time or another"

I wish I could remember what his name was because I thought it was awesome.

As for your argument, believe you me, I'm not trying to split that hair! I would even go so far as to say the we're both arguing the same side of the coin but it comes down to semantics of linguistics, which would be boring and annoying to begin with :-D
 
That's the nail being hit on the head right their, it's semantics. We each have our own personal cut-off point where we start saying our belief or disbelief in something is total, and from that arises much confusion.

EDIT: Can I add too that I love Rabbis? Of the 3 Abrahamic religions (not counting all the little offshoots like Mormanism) I think Judaism is my favourite. Their whole approach to the business of religion just seems to sit better with me.

Plus I like that they don't think everyone other than Jews is going to hell! (Not saying that all Christians and Muslims believe that either, I've studied the matter fairly extensively and there are lots of Christians (no idea about the Muslims) who do not believe in exclusivism, and great scriptural arguments for that stance - however exclusivism is pretty common belief for Christians, won't try too hazard any guess as to what % though).
 
Last edited:
It's good to know so many people can still have a civil discussion on this sort of thing. I've seen it get nasty quick more times than I can remember.

I personally believe that life and the universe were created by God as described in Genesis, but I wouldn't call myself a creationist. A large number of creationists believe the earth was created in six literal 24 hour days, and believe a lot of other things not supported by the Bible. Honestly, I think a good number of people believe in evolution because the alternative has been given a bad name by misguided religious folks. I greatly respect other peoples beliefs, however, no matter what they may be. Everyone has the right to believe what they wish.
 
The beginning of the Book of Genesis is actually a great example of why I like Judaism. When they were compiling all their oral stories they had 2 conflicting versions of creation. Instead of picking one of them and getting rid of the "heretical" one, they put both down.

Most people when they think of Genesis think of the longer part, the Adam and Eve story, where it says Man was created first, then the animals, then woman.

But the other version says animals first, then man and woman at the same time.

I'm sure there have been many explanations for how to reconcile these two versions, but they remain pretty contradictory from what I can understand, and I like that neither was excluded.

It is nice that people can just discuss this stuff, turns into a fight all to easily.
 
AToE said:
That's the nail being hit on the head right their, it's semantics. We each have our own personal cut-off point where we start saying our belief or disbelief in something is total, and from that arises much confusion.

EDIT: Can I add too that I love Rabbis? Of the 3 Abrahamic religions (not counting all the little offshoots like Mormanism) I think Judaism is my favourite. Their whole approach to the business of religion just seems to sit better with me. I like that they don't think everyone other than Jews is going to hell! (Not saying that all Christians and Muslims believe that either, I've studied the matter fairly extensively and there are lots of Christians (no idea about the Muslims) who do not believe in exclusivism, and great scriptural arguments for that stance - however exclusivism is pretty common belief for Christians, won't try too hazard any guess as to what % though).
Click to expand...

Exclusivism has always bothered me, Catholics and Mormons would be the first two that come to mind that do -not- believe in exclusivism. Both of these agree in earthly works being an outward sign of your faith. Good earthly works would tend to indicate a person who follows God inwardly as well.

Among the exlcusivist Christian denominations I would say they generally agree that so long as you accept Christ you're saved. JW's would be one exception to the exception.

I also remember seeing a study recently that showed that atheists and agnostics are better educated on religions than most people of a faith are in their own religion. I thought this was a rather intriguing idea.
 
Medsen Fey said:
I've always figured that if one human year was equivalent to 7 dog years, one "God day" might be a bit longer than 24 hours (maybe an eon). :)
On the other hand, time does fly when you're having fun.
Click to expand...

So you're saying God drank mead before the first day of creation?
 
One of the funniest stories about creation I ever heard was told to me by my religious instructor/professor/whatever (I take post secondary courses from time to time for fun).

He was in a cab with a Sikh guy driving, and so he started talking to him, always interested to learn more about Sikhism. So he asks the guy, what is the creation story in Sikhism?

Driver responds: God closed his eyes, then opened them, and there was the universe.

My teachers says: What a great story, powerful in it's simplicity! Definitely a lot more to the point than our JudaoChristian story.

Driver: Yeah, I never understood what took your god so long. ;) (clearly in good fun by the driver, Sikhs consider everyone's god the same god)

;D Man that always made me smile.
 
AToE said:
One of the funniest stories about creation I ever heard was told to me by my religious instructor/professor/whatever (I take post secondary courses from time to time for fun).

He was in a cab with a Sikh guy driving, and so he started talking to him, always interested to learn more about Sikhism. So he asks the guy, what is the creation story in Sikhism?

Driver responds: God closed his eyes, then opened them, and there was the universe.

My teachers says: What a great story, powerful in it's simplicity! Definitely a lot more to the point than our JudaoChristian story.

Driver: Yeah, I never understood what took your god so long. ;) (clearly in good fun by the driver, Sikhs consider everyone's god the same god)

;D Man that always made me smile.
Click to expand...

This seriously made me LOL, my wife is giving me dirty looks wondering what's so funny.
 
Oh I've got another one, also from when I lived in Vancouver (right in little-Punjab). I worked with an Indian guy (not Punjabi) and one day me and him were talking about religion, becuase at the time I didn't know much about the different Indian religions other than Buddhism. It went a little something like this: (Understand too that he was dead serious, that's what makes it so funny, he seriously didn't understand what my surprise was all about!).

(part way into the conversation)

Amit: Well, my dad is Hindu, and my mom converted to Hindu from Sikh when she married him.

Me: So what religion are you now?

Him: Umm, I go to Hindu temple on sundays, and Sikh temple on tuesdays. (I may have that reversed)

Me (surprised): That's really unique from an Abrahamic religion view, you go to both and it doesn't conflict?

Him with a confused look on his face (punchline of my LIFE): Well, the food is pretty much the same... sometimes the Sikh is a little spicier?

Me: Fall over laughing.
 
Last edited:
Medsen Fey said:
When I see the amazing function of life, even at the molecular level, I see vivid proof of the genius of the architect. One fact that I've often wondered about in these discussion and haven't seen addressed is apoptosis - programmed cell death. It is an interesting concept, and accounts in part for the fact that we have a lifespan. I would think that natural selection would strongly favor species/organisms that didn't program in a life-span. Such organisms would be able to reproduce more and would have a competitive advantage. Building organisms with a cellular life-span sort of defeats that purpose and makes me think again, life systems were engineered with a plan.
Click to expand...

I don't believe all animals have this. Alligators, and lobsters are missing it, among others I've been led to believe. I think the advantage that that programming serves, is linked to fertility. If the time-span of fertility is limited, the programmed death can be an advantage to the survival of the species.
 
Smarrikåka said:
I don't believe all animals have this. Alligators, and lobsters are missing it, among others I've been led to believe. I think the advantage that that programming serves, is linked to fertility. If the time-span of fertility is limited, the programmed death can be an advantage to the survival of the species.
Click to expand...

The other thing is that we don't only end up with things that are selected for, because some things cannot be selected against. Eye colour for example, serves zero purpose as far as we know, it's just how it happened to work out, and it never hurt us, so it never was selected against.

Cell death is an interesting one. In a single celled organism it's obviously a big problem, but since those reproduce so fast it simply may never have been weeded out properly (or we might be missing something big here, this will require research).

In most animals though it's not something that would come up very often, we typically (including humans until recently) would get killed off after having time to reproduce, but long long before we would die of aging. Getting old just isn't something most species have had to deal with very much.

I am interested to go look up some ideas on the evolution of that trait though, I'm sure people have put a lot of thought into it and have come up with some very good ideas.
 
TheAlchemist said:
Your Thoughts?

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/abou-ben-adhem/
Click to expand...

I think it is very nice, has a good message.

TheAlchemist said:
Ahem...what's boring about semantics?

The way we use language shapes the way we think...
A can of worms has been opened here...
More later...
Click to expand...

I love semantics, I just like to simplify them as much as possible in other conversations so people can figure out whether they were even really dissagreeing in the first place about the topic or the words!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Barrel Char Wood Products

Viking Brew Vessels - Authentic Drinking Horns

Top Bottom