What would you classify this as??

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This sounds like one of the coolest concoctions I have discovered on the site(so far). I would really like to try this recipe out(not trying to hijack just would like a taste for myself). Please update us on the taste.

I love this site, I find something interesting or extremely informational every time I get on here and you all are a bevy of information.

I cannot wait to hear from you to tell us how it turns out.

I'll keep everyone updated on this diabolical concoction as it progresses along... I'm planning to start brewing it on next Saturday (12/11)... I'm planning on making a starter for the yeast (round 1 yeast) the day/evening before... I'll just need to get the honey during the week...

Thinking ahead to when it should be done... I might 'unveil' it on April 1st, 2011... Or maybe April 24th (Easter Sunday) in black frosted champagne bottles (375ml if I can get them) with red lettering on them... At least, those could be the options to unveil to family members...

Been tossing names around with Chevy Girl (offline)... Thinking "Holy Hand-Grenade" might include "of Antioch", might not... >:D Really thinking that champagne corks and their normal retention hardware will be required too... Thinking of going full bore on this... Now to see if I can get the bottles like I want (without spending a small fortune) and then make labels and such...
 
Imperial Stouts are usually hopped much more aggressively. The Warrior hops you took out are pretty high alpha hops. If you replace them with Cascades (medium alpha) you should increase the amount of hops to get the same bittering. The Imperial Stouts I have made came in around 80-100 IBU by the numbers (surely less than that in reality though); I think the last one I did came up as 112 IBU on paper. Sounds crazy high, but the large amount of residual sugars and the long aging time means you can usually barely tell the hops are there. 22 IBU is nowhere near enough to balance the malt, IMO. I would suggest getting to at least 60 IBU, higher would be better.

If you're pitching EC-1118 in secondary with the honey, I'd be sure to get it acclimated to the beer before pitching. You might want to start the honey must fermenting and introduce the beer over the course of a couple days. Alternately you could just use it from the start, the IS I've done did that. The malt/sweetness/alcohol is going to swamp out the yeast characteristics for the most part, so a clean-fermenting yeast strain isn't going to hurt the flavor.
 
akueck, I was pretty clear that the honey was going into the wart when it was cooling down, so it would be in there from the beginning.

I will be using a 'starter' for the initial yeast (as already posted). When it's finished, and I rack it to secondary, that's when the EC-1118 will go in.

I'm still crunching numbers to figure out how much honey I'll add to the wort.

I actually don't like brews that come across with a lot of hops. What I've read already didn't say that I couldn't use the combination of hops I did, which I actually selected for their characteristics more than acid level. I'll have to see what the LHBS has in stock for additional hops... Since it's getting late here, I'll run the numbers in the morning... Thinking of maybe adding 1oz (these are ALL pellet amounts) of either Galena or Glacier during the boil... How long will depend on what I'll get for levels.

I really can't see myself pushing to 60 IBU on anything... My 'ceiling' for hop level (personally) is about 45. Beyond that and I just don't like to drink it. If I'm not going to enjoy it, I'm sure as hell not going to make/brew it. Brews getting close to 45 IBU, for me, typically means I'll have one, maybe two over a day/evening but that's it... Lower IBU's, I find, I can enjoy more and have more of them...

If I find it needs more hops during the aging process then I'll get some fresh hops to add/age with. Or figure out how to add the desired element to the flavor profile...

Probably going to yank the 'Imperial' from the name of this... Since that seems to make people think this is going to be a high IBU brew...
 
So after getting a decent night's sleep in (I was up until almost 4am after all) I've run the numbers and am thinking of going with three hops... I'll boil the Cascade for a total of 60 minutes, I'm adding Glacier for a 30 minute boil time, and still finishing with Fuggle at about 8 minutes... With the gravity of the wort this should give me 40 IBU +/- 1-2...

Depending on how the brew tastes when aging is complete, or close to complete, I might still rack onto some dry hops for a short time...

Never would have thought there was this much math involved in brewing beer...
 
I think that's a good idea. While I agree that for me 45 IBU or so is about the perfect amount unless I'm specifically looking for a hop-bomb beer, the type of beer is a huge thing. In a beer like the one you're making 40 IBU might be just the perfect amount to balance it without seeming bitter.

A 45 IBU dry lager would be too bitter possibly, but a 45 IBU "big beer" like an imperial anything, or baltic porter etc, would be "barely any hops".

Rogue makes a chocolate stout I really like which is 69 IBUs, but it's just barely pushing the bitterness threshold of "too much". In a regular beer that would be "very bitter" but in this case it just works.

I've also had an Imperial IPA that claimed to be over 50 IBUs, but I could barely taste the hops it was so sickly sweet!
 
I really can't see myself pushing to 60 IBU on anything... My 'ceiling' for hop level (personally) is about 45. Beyond that and I just don't like to drink it. If I'm not going to enjoy it, I'm sure as hell not going to make/brew it. Brews getting close to 45 IBU, for me, typically means I'll have one, maybe two over a day/evening but that's it... Lower IBU's, I find, I can enjoy more and have more of them...

As Akueck said, a lot of residual sweetness may well cover the bitterness entirely... but then again, each person has his/her own tastes... I know AToE likes his meads dry and I haven't yet made anything dry (wines and melomels so far) that I want to drink more than a glass of and it feels more like doing my duty than enjoying the fruits of my labours. Although it's been a long time since I've had a plain dry mead, it's probably time for another experiment to see if I can make something in the dry range that I like now that I know what bad habits of mine have led to stuck ferments in the past... and when I finally get to brewing (as if I didn't have enough stuff bubbling away!) I'll be doing a lot of experimentation with hops before I invest much money and time into a batch... bittersweet I can handle, but just plain bitter is more of a punishment to have to endure than something I enjoy. And my husband is even more sensitive to bitterness than I am.

And I think what Akueck meant by using a starter with the EC-1118 is to rehydrate it in a small amount of water then slowly add small amounts of your must every couple of hours until it's gotten used to it, that brew will probably already be pretty alcoholic by the time you pitch the 1118 in there and although it's a pretty hardy strain, dumping it into something that strong is like trying to unstick a stuck ferment by dumping more yeast in dry - by my own experience, not terribly effective, it doesn't make for a hospitable environment for the yeast to replicate and get off to a good start to finish the job.
 
From what I've been reading, I can add more hops during aging to increase their contribution without actually increasing the IBU level.

It's too bad that the charts don't list finer time of boil increments. That would really help narrow it down... Such as if I boil fo 33 minutes instead of 30, will I get a bit more? Or how about 35 minutes instead of 30? If I do 4 minutes or 9 minutes, the chart also has the same value... I would think that as time increased, so would the contribution... So if I did 8 minutes, I'd get more than if I did just 5.

If I changed the Glacier to Galena, I'd have to decrease the boil times (without having an exact acid % yet it's hard to say how long)... I will have to see how the three hops will play with each other too... They might compliment each other really well, or they might cause a nuclear implosion in the brew... I need to find someone that knows a great deal about mixing hops before I finalize this... Not someone that just likes to over-hop or enjoys hop-bombs... :eek:

I'm also considering changing the secondary yeast to something with more tolerance... Although I'm pretty sure I don't want this to go dry. If it goes into the 14-15% ABV range, I'd be good with that... Leave enough yeast alive to carbonate and it's golden... Well, if it wasn't darker than pitch that is... :o
 
I think that's a good idea. While I agree that for me 45 IBU or so is about the perfect amount unless I'm specifically looking for a hop-bomb beer, the type of beer is a huge thing. In a beer like the one you're making 40 IBU might be just the perfect amount to balance it without seeming bitter.

A 45 IBU dry lager would be too bitter possibly, but a 45 IBU "big beer" like an imperial anything, or baltic porter etc, would be "barely any hops".

Rogue makes a chocolate stout I really like which is 69 IBUs, but it's just barely pushing the bitterness threshold of "too much". In a regular beer that would be "very bitter" but in this case it just works.

I've also had an Imperial IPA that claimed to be over 50 IBUs, but I could barely taste the hops it was so sickly sweet!

This is exactly what I mean: hop bitterness perception in beers, like acid perception in wine, depends entirely on everything else that is there. A fresh dry 5% abv ale or lager with 50 IBUs would be rather bitter to extremely bitter depending on your tastes. An Imperial Stout that is 12 months old with 12% abv and a FG of 1.025 with 50 IBUs will be so sweet you won't know there are hops there at all. Imperial Stouts are highly hopped to combat the "this beer tastes like sugar" effect you get in a lot of "winter warmer" type beers: dark, high abv, long aging times, very high FG. You can lower the hopping rate, no problem, but it will be closer to a different style: barleywine, old ale, etc and not an Imperial Stout. Obviously this is all semantics and you can call it whatever you want and use any ingredients you want. If you have the space, try making a small batch with twice the hops and compare them 18 months from now.

If you're in the mood for an experiment, I would suggest seeing if you can find Pliny the Elder (Russian River), 90 min IPA (Dogfish), or any other DIPA [although so far these two are the best IMO]. Buy two bottles, put one in a cool dark place. Drink the other one right away (holy bitterness!). Drink the one you saved 6 months later (and if you bought Pliny, ask for forgiveness for aging it) and compare the flavor. What a difference time makes. I can drink about 2 oz of fresh Pliny before I am all bittered out. A 3 month old bottle is awesome; although it is still extremely bitter, the harshness is gone.

Edit: more posts while I type! Ack!

Yes, CG is right about the acclimated starter of EC-1118. Just adding it to a finished beer is a recipe for a finished beer with a yeasty flavor. Getting it going (in a wort or honey must, whatever you like) and then slowly adding the beer into it will get it used to its new home and get it to its full potential.

Don't worry about this going dry, you'll have lots of residual malt sugars in there. Since you're "diluting" it with honey, I'd suggest doing a longer boil to promote some extra long-chain sugars, which are formed during the boil. 90 minute boils are common for huge beers like this (keep track of volume loss due to evaporation).

Hop utilization does change with time. There are lots of online calculators out there. Here's one from Tinseth. I often use the calculator at Beertools.com. Each calculator comes out with slightly different numbers, and they are all just estimates. [this leads into my "112 IBU on paper" comment: the real IBU if tested in a lab was surely no higher than 80.] You can play around with the %AA and times to see what effects you'll get from using different hops for different times.

Adding hops after fermentation (dry hopping) will add aroma without any bitterness [adding bitterness requires boiling to isomerize the acid into a water soluble form]. Aroma is pretty fragile, however, so if you wanted to dry hop I'd do it right before bottling. Any earlier and it will just age out. Bitterness really, really ages out and changes character over time.
 
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I think I forgot to take what aging does to the whole mix...

Modified plan... Use 2oz of Cascade and Glacier hops, 60 minute boil time on Cascade, 30 minute boil time on Glacier, 5 minute boil time with Fuggle... That should give me a IBU of about 77 to start... If I only use 1oz of Glacier, I'd get an IBU of 63... Or I could do 50 minutes on Cascade, 25 minutes on Glacier and 5 on Fuggle (2oz for Cascade and Glacier still) yielding an IBU of about 67 (closer to between the two above)... I'm looking to have this ready for bottling come early April so that it's carbonated before April 24th... IF at all possible... I'll also pick up some additional Fuggle (or maybe another variety) so that I could add it about a week before bottling... Or, when it's ready otherwise for bottling, and if I want to add a bit more of what that hop brings for flavor and aroma, I'll have it on hand to add.

Based on what's been posted, when I rack out of primary, I'll reserve 1-2 cups of wort, rehydrate the yeast, and then step-feed the wort to the yeast (probably using the same 1.5L jar I'll be using for the primary yeast)...

For the boiling before adding the hops... If I plan on 50 minutes total hop boil time, would another 30-40 minutes of boil before that be sufficient to "promote some extra long-chain sugars"...

As for what it will be called, I've been thinking about making something more akin to a Barley Wine... Smooth, but with a KICK to it... So, perhaps using just two ounces of Cascade hops, then one ounce each of Glacier and Fuggle, with the 50 minute hop boil time (total)... Should get an IBU closer to 55 that way... I think I'll pick up extra Cascade and the two ounces of Glacier either way... Even if I don't use some of it now, I'm sure I'll use it in a upcoming brew...

I thought that the style was more determined by malts and grains used than hops... Still pretty new to making beer... Picking up the designing book has opened up a whole other aspect of brewing beers though... I'm now thinking about things more, not just trusting 'dumb luck' or going off of a script/recipe now... Especially with how I've already been deviating when I was sort of following one...

I do think that my next beer will be at least partially whole grain...

-edit-
In case I cannot get Glacier hops, here's "Plan B"... 2oz of Cascade hops boiled for 60 minutes. 1oz Cascade hops boiled for 25 minutes. 1oz of Fuggle hops boiled for 5 minutes... That should give me an IBU of a hair over 63... Either way, I think I'm going to target that 63 range on this one... If I need to let it age more to smooth out, I will...
 
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Ready by April might be a stretch. Big beers take their sweet time carbonating. Usually I allow 4-6 months in the bottle to reach full carbonation on anything over 10% abv. You're probably looking at 1-2 months of time in a carboy too.

Hops definitely determine style as much as any other ingredient. The difference between a pale, IPA, and DIPA is largely in the hops. Even within those styles, the difference between English, Continental, East coast US and West coast US versions is mostly determined by the extent and character of hopping. A West coast pale could pass as an IPA on the East coast (with exceptions of course).

50-60 IBU is probably enough to keep this from being overly sweet, especially if you're looking to drink this sooner rather than a year or more from now.
 
I was looking at 3-4-1/2 months in carboys between fermenting and aging on things... If it's not ready until next fall, that's not a bad thing... I can start something for a 'spring time' brew in another month or two... I'm thinking that this will be more of a barley wine than a stout... I'll plan on giving it a light carbonation, probably no more than 1.3-1.5 CO2 volume... Should be ready come Thanksgiving 2011, right?

I'll start this one a little later... I have a recipe for a Vanilla Porter that sounds pretty good... I'll tweak it a bit (probably not as far as this one though) and start that one this coming weekend...
 
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Bringing this one back from storage...

Thought things through a little more, ran the numbers some and I think I might have a better solution... Go with either 1 or 2 pounds of honey (no more 6 pounds), going with three ounces of Cascade hops with 60 minutes and 25 minutes of boil time (as well as 5 minutes with Fuggle) gives me more IBU, on paper at least... Depending on when I use the 2oz portion of Cascade will determine what IBU number I get for either amount of honey. If I go with one ounce for 60 and two for 25 minutes, I get about 59 IBU under 2 pounds of honey. I get 61 with one pound. If I flip the 2 ounce to the 60 minute boil then that number goes to 68 IBU for 2 pounds of honey, or 70 IBU with one pound of honey... Starting gravities figure out to 1.119 with two pounds of honey and 1.112 for one pound...

With all this re-working, how much quicker would this be completed (compared with the 6-12 months before) and drinkable? Thinking that I'll bottle some in the 500ml Grolsch style bottles, plus get some other sizes (375ml, 750ml, 1L) provided I can find either the right style, or ones I like. I'm thinking of using corks in the 750ml bottles and maybe the 1L (if I can get them)... Not sure about the smaller bottles... I'd still like to go with black frosted bottles, IF I can get them (anyone know of a place [online?] where they can be found?)... Not looking to give too much carbonation, just enough to get the job done (might go middle of the road on this one)...
 
I'm trying out the Beer Smith software right now... Rather helpful too, so I'll probably end up purchasing it (it is rather inexpensive after all)... With a little tweaking, I'm able to match this recipe to more of a English Barleywine formula... So, I'm thinking that's what I'll make from it... Maybe... I keep coming back to the IBS... Or a variation on that... Damnit, I need to figure this out so that I can get it going while everything is still optimal (ingredients)...

Thoughts?
 
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The rule of thumb I've seen is 1 month for up to 6% abv, and add a month for every 1% abv after that before you should even consider tasting a bottle of your beer. Obviously the exceptions are manifold. [what a fun word to use!] Even so, if you guess you're going to be sitting at around 11% abv, that means 6 months of aging before you can expect it to have gotten past its awkward teenage stage. Sooner than your 14-15% abv version, but only by a couple months.
 
The rule of thumb I've seen is 1 month for up to 6% abv, and add a month for every 1% abv after that before you should even consider tasting a bottle of your beer. Obviously the exceptions are manifold. [what a fun word to use!] Even so, if you guess you're going to be sitting at around 11% abv, that means 6 months of aging before you can expect it to have gotten past its awkward teenage stage. Sooner than your 14-15% abv version, but only by a couple months.

Don't you just love how thumbs rule?? lol

I'm also looking at brewing a chocolate vanilla Scotch Ale at some point... As things stand now in the recipe build, it's around 11%ABV (according to the software, actual could push higher)... Might use two yeasts to ensure I get to that number...

How would you store the brews for the aging time (in bottles)?? I'm thinking of using larger (750ml-1.5L) champagne style bottles for this (or anything in this range)... That way I can be pretty sure the bottle will stand up to the pressures of carbonation and I won't pop the top... Thinking going all the way and using the correct corks even, with the wire baskets and such... Will foil later, if at all... Not sure how high I would carbonate these either... I'm leaning more towards the lower end of the scale I'm finding. I'll find out in just over a week if that works as I hope it does.

Also trying to formulate an actual braggot style beastie... Around 11-14%ABV there (potentially), so I should be able to consume it in about a half year... Give or take...
 
Bottles are fine for aging these. Bulk aging for awhile is also fine, but if you're bottle conditioning you should allow several months for that to happen in large beers. Longer bulk aging also means less yeast in suspension, so that could lead to longer bottle conditioning times (a yeast rouse at bottling after extended aging is not uncommon, nor is the addition of fresh yeast).

Regular beer bottles can hold up to about 3.5 volumes of CO2 safely, although I'd suggest not going much higher than 3 just to be on the safe side. If you're carbonating lower than that, bigger (thicker) bottles aren't going to give you any extra insurance against the pressure. Crown caps are also fine well past 3.5 volumes. You can use corks & cages, but it would be a functional/aesthetic decision in this case and not a safety issue.
 
Need some input on this updated recipe...

Malt: 3 3.3lb cans Dark syrup (9.9 pounds total)
Grains (crushed): 4oz Dark Crystal; 4oz Roasted Barley; 8oz chocolate
Hops: Bittering: 2oz Cascade 60 minute boil; Flavor: 1oz Fuggles, 15 minute boil; Aroma: 1oz Saaz, 10 minute boil
Yeast: Primary: Wyeast Liquid 1084 Irish Ale (using starter). Secondary: Lalvin EC-1118
Extra's: 6lbs Wildflower honey, added when wort cools to below 110F
Misc: Age for 2-4 weeks on top of boubon soaked oak cubes. Age for 1-4 weeks over vanilla bean. Considering including one vanilla bean duing boil for last 10-15 minutes of boil time.

Using Beer Smith software, IBU number hits 57.2. Estimated alcohol volume is 11.20%. SG estimate: 1.113; FG estimate: 1.028

Thinking of also using some of the Wyeast nutrient in this batch... Either 2g or 4g, not sure yet...
 
Still tweaking the recipe for this brew (working name of TripSix)... I did have someone come over and we had a 'brew-day' on Saturday...

I prepared a starter for the yeast that we were going to use... I activated the yeast (going into a honey vanilla porter), let it inflate the bag for a few hours, then pitched it into the 1.5L jar with a mixture of 1 cup must (gravity of 1.156), ~1 cup water, 1/2 cup light DME and 1/2tsp of Wyeast nutrient... After letting it rest for a little, I swirled the jar... Foamed up immediately (about 1/2 ro 2/3 the volume of the solution).

After I pitched the yeast/starter slurry into the wort, it was showing some activity within about 30-45 minutes. After two hours, about 2" of foam covered the top of the wort (in a 6 gallon carboy). At almost 7 hours, the foam was coming out of the airlock and I could hear it in the living room. I had to install a make-shift blow-off tube (bottling wand tube, in the bung, to a 2 gallon pail with about 2 quarts of sanitizing solution in the bottom. It popped the bung out just once (I quickly put it back in, and made sure it was in as well as possible). It's been burping into that since then. There were times that it let off so much foam that the carboy actually shook (I expected it to close it's eyes and groan)... I've never had that much activity after pitching in yeast. Not in the 6 gallon carboy that is. I used blow-off tubes in the carboys that have mead in them. I'm not sure if this is 'normal' activity when using a starter or not (as I mentioned, first time using it)... I have pictures of the foam in the airlock, as well as the activity (last night) inside the carboy.

I'm not sure if I need to use a starter with these yeasts, in brewing at least. While I like what it can do, the amount of activity that was coming out of the carboy was a little unsettling... I was nervous going to bed, worried about the bung getting popped again and having a mess to clean up in the morning. Luckily, the bung stayed in all night and the tube did it's job (probably not as well as a larger one would have, but you use what you have on hand)... It does appear that the activity is calming down. Not seeing any foam coming through the tube, just lots of bubbles. I'll probably install the airlock again tomorrow during the day. No plans to go anywhere, so I'll be here in case anything happens.

Is this kind of activity normal when using a starter? Or did these yeasts go into overdrive?

The Wyeast activator pack yeasts claim "1 billion" yeast cells (I believe once you've popped the nutrient packet inside and given it time to work)... It did swell up quite nicely, and I gave it more than the 3 hour minimum the package says to (more like 5-6 hours). Since this had a date in December, I figured I didn't need to give it more than that amount of time.